Stream Entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Nwad
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Nwad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:07 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:00 pm
terminology is important, if you are confused about the terms i suggest you try speak in your own words more otherwise i will probably keep doing this.
Wery good analysis my friend !!! :bow:

Actualy "when IT will arive" means attainment of stream entry (because OP ask about how to know if some one is stream enterer). Also "IT" means this "powerfull insight" , because this insight (whitch is personal to each practitioner, like a different key openes different door) brings you a clear vision of anicca, dukkha and anatta (or just one of them) in all obsevables phenomenas.
This insight can arrive when you eat, when you walk, when you just seat, in jhana too etc. All depends on "readyness" of fruit. And when it falls you cant miss it because its change you from the deep. All depends on one's purity of mind, some beings just on hearing about anicca, dukkha and anatta for the first time attein Arahanship, others nothing at all... So when fruit is ready, it falls.

What about joy, its about Laughting Buddha, when you realise that somethink is just a joke - you laught, when you realise and sees that somethink that you was affraid is illusion you laught, feel joy, you wana to go out and scream to everybody - " Wake up!!! Its just an illusion !!! Dont be affraid!! :D" but you cant because there is difference between conceptual and direct understanding of things, if someones mind is ready - he will realise it by founding his own key (satipatthana is about searching the key, samathi is about seeing him), if someones mind is not ready - you can tell him all about Dhamma, read him all suttas, tell him that all is anicca, dukkha and anatta many times, but he will say just - "yes i know, and what? :thinking: ..."

Actualy its no metter how it heppens and how you feel it, what is important is uprooting of fetters.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:23 pm

Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:07 pm
I understand what you mean better now,
would you agree that it is same in meaning as;
When mindfulness is strong and one remains focused on Arising and Falling however it appears, further focused on the Inconsistency&Impermanence, he reflects; "This is not me, this is not mine, this is stress etc" in regards to the arisen Phenomena.
When focused like this one can feel like one sees something before unseen, notices something was unnoticed, learning and gaining profound knowledge about how things work by investigating and direct experience, thus focused and concentrated on experiences great Joy of the Flesh and not of the Flesh.

Is that close to what you are saying?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:30 pm

Meant to say of the Flesh and not of the Flesh in the end.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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Nwad
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Nwad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:36 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:23 pm
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:07 pm
I understand what you mean better now,
would you agree that it is same in meaning as;
When mindfulness is strong and one remains focused on Arising and Falling however it appears, further focused on the Inconsistency&Impermanence, he reflects; "This is not me, this is not mine, this is stress etc" in regards to the arisen Phenomena.
When focused like this one can feel like one sees something before unseen, notices something was unnoticed, learning and gaining profound knowledge about how things work by investigating and direct experience, thus focused and concentrated on experiences great Joy of the Body and Flesh.

Is that close to what you are saying?
Yes it is! :)
Its about what? And who is the autor?

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:42 pm

read lots and lots of dhamma. in the canon, many become sotāpanna by hearing the buddha or his disciples. keep the eight precepts, this will make it easier to meditate and by that you can gain insight
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:00 pm

Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:36 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:23 pm
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:07 pm
I understand what you mean better now,
would you agree that it is same in meaning as;
When mindfulness is strong and one remains focused on Arising and Falling however it appears, further focused on the Inconsistency&Impermanence, he reflects; "This is not me, this is not mine, this is stress etc" in regards to the arisen Phenomena.
When focused like this one can feel like one sees something before unseen, notices something was unnoticed, learning and gaining profound knowledge about how things work by investigating and direct experience, thus focused and concentrated on experiences great Joy of the Body and Flesh.

Is that close to what you are saying?
Yes it is! :)
Its about what? And who is the autor?
I just interpereted your own words. It mentions two things of particular interest to you i think;
1. Entering Four Factored Jhana
2. Development of Insight

What i want to say is that this alone does not constitute Stream-Entry necessarily because this is how wisdom is trained in general.

However if a particular insight is gained in this way it would make one a Cula-Sotapanna according to the Abhidhamma interpretation which is a good interpretation by all means afaik.

You would be completely correct in saying what you said in regards to stream entry then but you would have to say that it is a particular Insight not the "different for everybody" thing.

The Insight
The Mogok Sayadaw;
Vipassana nana (Uddayabbaya nana) or knowledge or insight into the absence of immortal soul
Witnessed the arising and dissolving phenomenon of meditation objects and have perceived the concept of Anatta (impersonal).
That would make one a Cula-Sotapanna or a Dhamma/Faith-Follower am not sure exactly which knowledges correspond to different attainments, but there is a system for this.

It is in this kind of litterature i think based on the Abhidhamma;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#ch4.2
The Progress of Insight
(Visuddhiñana-katha)
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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Nwad
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Nwad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:36 pm

Thank you Rightview for explenation :hug: You have a good sens of analysis ;)

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:44 pm

Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:36 pm
Thank you Rightview for explenation :hug: You have a good sens of analysis ;)
most happy to help and thank you for practicing, seems like you are doing well.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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cappuccino
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:53 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul#Buddhism
If the word "soul" simply refers to an incorporeal component in living things that can continue after death, then Buddhism does not deny the existence of the soul. Instead, Buddhism denies the existence of a permanent entity that remains constant behind the changing corporeal and incorporeal components of a living being.

Saengnapha
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:11 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:28 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:45 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
Where is that said?
I am sure people can recall more passages but here it is Implied ie;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
1. Eternalism (Sassatavāda): Views 1–4

30. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are eternalists, and who on four grounds proclaim the self and the world to be eternal. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

31. "In the first case, bhikkhus, some recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated, [purified, clarified, unblemished, devoid of corruptions],[5] he recollects his numerous past lives: that is, (he recollects) one birth, two, three, four, or five births; ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty births; a hundred, a thousand, or a hundred thousand births; many hundreds of births, many thousands of births, many hundreds of thousands of births. (He recalls:) 'Then I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his numerous past lives in their modes and their details.
There is no reference to stream entry in your quotes.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:13 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:11 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:28 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:45 pm

Where is that said?
I am sure people can recall more passages but here it is Implied ie;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
1. Eternalism (Sassatavāda): Views 1–4

30. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are eternalists, and who on four grounds proclaim the self and the world to be eternal. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

31. "In the first case, bhikkhus, some recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated, [purified, clarified, unblemished, devoid of corruptions],[5] he recollects his numerous past lives: that is, (he recollects) one birth, two, three, four, or five births; ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty births; a hundred, a thousand, or a hundred thousand births; many hundreds of births, many thousands of births, many hundreds of thousands of births. (He recalls:) 'Then I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his numerous past lives in their modes and their details.
There is no reference to stream entry in your quotes.
There is direct implication of lack of Right View, therefore no Stream-Entry.
Think about Bodhisatta as well as Venerable Sariputta & Venerable Maha-Mogalana attaining Arupa Jhanas before Nibbana, ladder before hearing the Dhamma afaik.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:35 am

here from MN 26 PTS: M i 160
Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search;
"In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

Saengnapha
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:36 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:13 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:11 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:28 pm

I am sure people can recall more passages but here it is Implied ie;
There is no reference to stream entry in your quotes.
There is direct implication of lack of Right View, therefore no Stream-Entry.
Think about Bodhisatta as well as Venerable Sariputta & Venerable Maha-Mogalana attaining Arupa Jhanas before Nibbana, ladder before hearing the Dhamma.
Perhaps if you are not a Buddhist, you can be thought to be having mystical experiences that don't relate to the views of Buddhists. The Buddha's teachers attained deep states of meditative absorption but could not let go of their arupa jhanas. The Buddha did not instruct them to become sotapanna. In fact, most of the suttas are not about becoming sotapanna. The view of ladder is also 'wrong view' in the big picture, but in the beginning it seems important. View is conditioned and has nothing to do with nibbana except as an intellectual precursor in a drawn up 'model' of path. For me, path is not linear and not static.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:50 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:45 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
Where is that said?
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:35 am
here from MN 26 PTS: M i 160
Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search;
"In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
gn :anjali:
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:59 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:36 am
Perhaps if you are not a Buddhist, you can be thought to be having mystical experiences that don't relate to the views of Buddhists. The Buddha's teachers attained deep states of meditative absorption but could not let go of their arupa jhanas. The Buddha did not instruct them to become sotapanna. In fact, most of the suttas are not about becoming sotapanna. The view of ladder is also 'wrong view' in the big picture, but in the beginning it seems important. View is conditioned and has nothing to do with nibbana except as an intellectual precursor in a drawn up 'model' of path. For me, path is not linear and not static.
Restrain yourself, it would be good for you and others who you may confuse with such talk.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/alara-kalama
When, after having practised austerities for six years, the Buddha attained Enlightenment and granted Sahampatis request to preach the doctrine, it was of Alara he thought first as being the fittest to hear the teaching. But Alara had died seven days earlier (Vin.i.7)
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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