Stream Entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Nwad
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Nwad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm

I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm

Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm
I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:
That is good :smile: phew:)
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.

Saengnapha
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:45 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm
I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:
That is good :smile: phew:)
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
Where is that said?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:47 pm

That being said. If a person has a strong conviction, is established in mindfulness and attains easily the four Rupa Jhanas he is likely rightfully called Stream-Enterer, probably Dhamma or Faith Fallower on the Path and will realize the Fruit eventually in this life.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:05 pm

“If One Would Wish
Ākaṅkheyya Sutta (MN 6)

If a monk would wish, ‘May I—with the ending of (the first) three fetters—be a stream-winner, certain, never again destined for the lower realms, headed for self-awakening,’ then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to inner tranquility of awareness, who doesn’t neglect jhāna, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:28 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:45 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
Where is that said?
I am sure people can recall more passages but here it is Implied ie;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
1. Eternalism (Sassatavāda): Views 1–4

30. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are eternalists, and who on four grounds proclaim the self and the world to be eternal. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

31. "In the first case, bhikkhus, some recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated, [purified, clarified, unblemished, devoid of corruptions],[5] he recollects his numerous past lives: that is, (he recollects) one birth, two, three, four, or five births; ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty births; a hundred, a thousand, or a hundred thousand births; many hundreds of births, many thousands of births, many hundreds of thousands of births. (He recalls:) 'Then I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his numerous past lives in their modes and their details.

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Nwad
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Nwad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:55 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm
I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:
That is good :smile: phew:)
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
I dont said it was a jhana or during a jhana too :P

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:46 pm

I will show how we understand eachother:)
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm
You will not miss it when it will arrive.
X will arrive
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm
You will have some powerfull insight about nature of the world
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm
this insight will allow you to see all as anicca, dukkha and anatta
So we know now that the "Powerful Insight" is followed by "Seeing All as anicca, dukkha and anatta".
In the Dhamma these words have meaning;
All = Sabba Sutta;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
The words;
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm
see all as
So this means that the All is perceived as;
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm
as anicca, dukkha and anatta
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm
directly, not conceptualy
First comes "powerful insight" then comes perception of characteristic of stress in All [Created Phenomena], then X arrives/Arises.
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm
this clear vision of things as they realy are
Here Nyanaponika There offers one interpretation of the term in itself;
To see things as they really are means to see them consistently in the light of the three characteristics.
however you did say
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm
directly, not conceptualy
This would normally refer to a meditative attainment;
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.

"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.' So I went to him and said, 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness.

"I thought: 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?'

"'Yes, my friend...'

"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'
So it does at this point sound like you are talking by entering meditative state.
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm
will uproot your "i am", uproot that what you considered as yourself (consciously or inconsciously)
So a meditative attainment that uproots the view of self by seeing 3Cs in All, sounds a lot like;
Saṃyutta Nikāya 35

Connected Discourses on the Six Sense Bases
31. Suitable for Uprooting
“Since he does not conceive anything thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna.
However Nibbana is not an arisen state. It does not arrive. Therefore X cannot be Nibbana. So i am thinking Jhana Then, what else can it be and get concerned that you might Hold Eternalist View about Nibbana in the Here&Now.
this uprooting will make you feel realy light, as if you droped off a realy havy bag from your sholders,
this lightness and understanding will bring you joy.
At this point you talk about Jhana factor Joy arising after reflecting on 3 characteristics so i am almost certain you are talking about Jhana as if it was Nibbana.
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:55 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 pm
I dont said that it is Nibbana or an end of suffering :roll:
..
I dont said it was a jhana or during a jhana too :P
So my question is then what is this "powerful insight" and this "meditative attainment" that you are talking about and how does it relate to Stream-Entry?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:00 pm

terminology is important, if you are confused about the terms i suggest you try speak in your own words more otherwise i will probably keep doing this.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:13 pm

i dont mind doing it, it is good training in semantics and looking up Sutta for me and you learn quickly i think but hardly appropriate way to talk about the Dhamma imho.

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Nwad
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Nwad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:07 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:00 pm
terminology is important, if you are confused about the terms i suggest you try speak in your own words more otherwise i will probably keep doing this.
Wery good analysis my friend !!! :bow:

Actualy "when IT will arive" means attainment of stream entry (because OP ask about how to know if some one is stream enterer). Also "IT" means this "powerfull insight" , because this insight (whitch is personal to each practitioner, like a different key openes different door) brings you a clear vision of anicca, dukkha and anatta (or just one of them) in all obsevables phenomenas.
This insight can arrive when you eat, when you walk, when you just seat, in jhana too etc. All depends on "readyness" of fruit. And when it falls you cant miss it because its change you from the deep. All depends on one's purity of mind, some beings just on hearing about anicca, dukkha and anatta for the first time attein Arahanship, others nothing at all... So when fruit is ready, it falls.

What about joy, its about Laughting Buddha, when you realise that somethink is just a joke - you laught, when you realise and sees that somethink that you was affraid is illusion you laught, feel joy, you wana to go out and scream to everybody - " Wake up!!! Its just an illusion !!! Dont be affraid!! :D" but you cant because there is difference between conceptual and direct understanding of things, if someones mind is ready - he will realise it by founding his own key (satipatthana is about searching the key, samathi is about seeing him), if someones mind is not ready - you can tell him all about Dhamma, read him all suttas, tell him that all is anicca, dukkha and anatta many times, but he will say just - "yes i know, and what? :thinking: ..."

Actualy its no metter how it heppens and how you feel it, what is important is uprooting of fetters.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:23 pm

Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:07 pm
I understand what you mean better now,
would you agree that it is same in meaning as;
When mindfulness is strong and one remains focused on Arising and Falling however it appears, further focused on the Inconsistency&Impermanence, he reflects; "This is not me, this is not mine, this is stress etc" in regards to the arisen Phenomena.
When focused like this one can feel like one sees something before unseen, notices something was unnoticed, learning and gaining profound knowledge about how things work by investigating and direct experience, thus focused and concentrated on experiences great Joy of the Flesh and not of the Flesh.

Is that close to what you are saying?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Nwad
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Nwad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:36 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:23 pm
Nwad wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:07 pm
I understand what you mean better now,
would you agree that it is same in meaning as;
When mindfulness is strong and one remains focused on Arising and Falling however it appears, further focused on the Inconsistency&Impermanence, he reflects; "This is not me, this is not mine, this is stress etc" in regards to the arisen Phenomena.
When focused like this one can feel like one sees something before unseen, notices something was unnoticed, learning and gaining profound knowledge about how things work by investigating and direct experience, thus focused and concentrated on experiences great Joy of the Body and Flesh.

Is that close to what you are saying?
Yes it is! :)
Its about what? And who is the autor?

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:42 pm

read lots and lots of dhamma. in the canon, many become sotāpanna by hearing the buddha or his disciples. keep the eight precepts, this will make it easier to meditate and by that you can gain insight
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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