Stream Entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:13 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:11 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:28 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:45 pm

Where is that said?
I am sure people can recall more passages but here it is Implied ie;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
1. Eternalism (Sassatavāda): Views 1–4

30. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are eternalists, and who on four grounds proclaim the self and the world to be eternal. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

31. "In the first case, bhikkhus, some recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated, [purified, clarified, unblemished, devoid of corruptions],[5] he recollects his numerous past lives: that is, (he recollects) one birth, two, three, four, or five births; ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty births; a hundred, a thousand, or a hundred thousand births; many hundreds of births, many thousands of births, many hundreds of thousands of births. (He recalls:) 'Then I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his numerous past lives in their modes and their details.
There is no reference to stream entry in your quotes.
There is direct implication of lack of Right View, therefore no Stream-Entry.
Think about Bodhisatta as well as Venerable Sariputta & Venerable Maha-Mogalana attaining Arupa Jhanas before Nibbana, ladder before hearing the Dhamma afaik.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:35 am

here from MN 26 PTS: M i 160
Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search;
"In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.

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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:36 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:13 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:11 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:28 pm

I am sure people can recall more passages but here it is Implied ie;
There is no reference to stream entry in your quotes.
There is direct implication of lack of Right View, therefore no Stream-Entry.
Think about Bodhisatta as well as Venerable Sariputta & Venerable Maha-Mogalana attaining Arupa Jhanas before Nibbana, ladder before hearing the Dhamma.
Perhaps if you are not a Buddhist, you can be thought to be having mystical experiences that don't relate to the views of Buddhists. The Buddha's teachers attained deep states of meditative absorption but could not let go of their arupa jhanas. The Buddha did not instruct them to become sotapanna. In fact, most of the suttas are not about becoming sotapanna. The view of ladder is also 'wrong view' in the big picture, but in the beginning it seems important. View is conditioned and has nothing to do with nibbana except as an intellectual precursor in a drawn up 'model' of path. For me, path is not linear and not static.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:50 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:45 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:37 pm
The thing with Jhana is that a person can have even Arupa jhanas and not be a Stream Enterer.
Where is that said?
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:35 am
here from MN 26 PTS: M i 160
Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search;
"In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
gn :anjali:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:59 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:36 am
Perhaps if you are not a Buddhist, you can be thought to be having mystical experiences that don't relate to the views of Buddhists. The Buddha's teachers attained deep states of meditative absorption but could not let go of their arupa jhanas. The Buddha did not instruct them to become sotapanna. In fact, most of the suttas are not about becoming sotapanna. The view of ladder is also 'wrong view' in the big picture, but in the beginning it seems important. View is conditioned and has nothing to do with nibbana except as an intellectual precursor in a drawn up 'model' of path. For me, path is not linear and not static.
Restrain yourself, it would be good for you and others who you may confuse with such talk.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/alara-kalama
When, after having practised austerities for six years, the Buddha attained Enlightenment and granted Sahampatis request to preach the doctrine, it was of Alara he thought first as being the fittest to hear the teaching. But Alara had died seven days earlier (Vin.i.7)

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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:41 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:59 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:36 am
Perhaps if you are not a Buddhist, you can be thought to be having mystical experiences that don't relate to the views of Buddhists. The Buddha's teachers attained deep states of meditative absorption but could not let go of their arupa jhanas. The Buddha did not instruct them to become sotapanna. In fact, most of the suttas are not about becoming sotapanna. The view of ladder is also 'wrong view' in the big picture, but in the beginning it seems important. View is conditioned and has nothing to do with nibbana except as an intellectual precursor in a drawn up 'model' of path. For me, path is not linear and not static.
Restrain yourself, it would be good for you and others who you may confuse with such talk.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/alara-kalama
When, after having practised austerities for six years, the Buddha attained Enlightenment and granted Sahampatis request to preach the doctrine, it was of Alara he thought first as being the fittest to hear the teaching. But Alara had died seven days earlier (Vin.i.7)
confusion is self created. Restraint is useless. So are your attempts at explanations. Mine, too! :D

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Re: Stream Entry

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:41 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:46 pm
So we know now that the "Powerful Insight" is followed by "Seeing All as anicca, dukkha and anatta".
Is Nibbana included in the All, as apart of the 'dhamma' mind objects? Ud 8.1 does say Nibbana is an 'ayatana'. What do you think of this?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:43 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:41 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:46 pm
So we know now that the "Powerful Insight" is followed by "Seeing All as anicca, dukkha and anatta".
Is Nibbana included in the All, as apart of the 'dhamma' mind objects? Ud 8.1 does say Nibbana is an 'ayatana'. What do you think of this?
Keep in mind i was interpereting, trying to make sense of a members subjective experience.
The Idea, The Concept, The Word "Nibbana", even tho a unique Concept, is part of All as any other Idea. Think of it as an organism interpereting Data about it self and the enviroment by means of Abstracting and Conceptualizing, using logic and concepts to understand the system in which All gains a footing. Recollection of Peace arises as Aggregates as well.

The Idea of cessation of happiness and the imagination of Nibbana is not the Nibbana in itself. Like the words "Dog", "Perro" or "Chien" are not the Animal, words dont bark, we cant pet a word or the concept. In this sense the concept of Nibbana is not the ultimate reality of Nibbana but thinking about it or the cessation is part of Sabba-"sankhara", a Mind Object, ideas cognized by Intellect, a part of All, a formation.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:57 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:41 am
confusion is self created. Restraint is useless. So are your attempts at explanations. Mine, too! :D
I would challenge all of it, i also think you are not very familiar with the Nikayas and have many ideas which can be directly contradicted by the texts. IE what you said above is not true as it stands a lot of is just false information. Here just an example;
Dhammapada Verse 360. Sense Discipline

Right is restraint in the eye,
restraint in the ear is right,
right is restraint in the nose,
restraint in the tongue is right.

Explanation: It is good to be disciplined in the eye. It is good to be disciplined in the ear. It is good to be disciplined in the nose. To be disciplined in the tongue is good.


Verse 361. Suffering End With All-Round Discipline

Right is restraint in the body,
restraint in speech is right,
right is restraint in the mind,
everywhere restraint is right.
The bhikkhu everywhere restrained
is from all dukkha free.

Explanation: It is good to be disciplined in body. It is good to be disciplined in words. It is good to be disciplined in mind. The monk who is disciplined in all these areas will achieve freedom from all suffering.
AN 2.23 PTS: A i 59
II,iii,3
Abhasita Sutta: What Was Not Said
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997

"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."
Alternative;
AN 2.25:

"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred..."

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Re: Stream Entry

Post by 2600htz » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:01 pm

jasday wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:25 pm
How do I experience stream entry?
How will I know when I've experienced stream entry?
I'm a lay person and I'm just beginning to meditate 1-2x per day for 20 minutes each time following the breath and being mindful, and my efforts have proved to show improvement. I have been meditating for years (inconsistently) and now with consistency and I haven't seen too much fruit. I feel more at peace. I feel that I'm better able to follow the path. I've given up alcohol, I've in the last month been going to the sangha. I know the consistency and extra effort: abstaining from alcohol, donating food to the sangha, and meditating at least every day for at least 20 minutes (mindfulness of breathing) is recent, but it's a big leap considering that I've spent years trying to get to this point.

I want to know what it will take to attain stream entry. I enjoy the increasing benefits of happiness the path brings in this life, but I would be very disappointed to find that I fall backwards either in this life or after this life.
Please help.

I need a good answer that will show me the way.


Thanks all!
Hello:

The easiest way is to look for a teacher who understands dependent origination.
Then you just follow his instructions until your experience matches with his definition of stream-entry :P

Regards.

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Re: Stream Entry

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:06 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:43 am
The Idea, The Concept, The Word "Nibbana", even tho a unique Concept, is part of All as any other Idea.
In the Sabba Sutta, the Pali word is 'dhamme', which does not mean "ideas". The translation "ideas" by Thanissaro appears to be wrong. Yet you make a long reply based on what is probably wrong understanding. In other words, translations are probably not the best way to form views about Dhamma.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:15 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:43 am
you make a long reply based on what is probably wrong understanding. In other words, translations are probably not the best way to form views about Dhamma.
I am happy to discuss it but id like more feedback than that.

probably? what % of certainty? do you have a different explaination? Is my explaination contradicted? is my explaination not logical or does it require a leap of faith or unreasonable assumptions?

I think it is pretty obvious, the thing i would not be able to explain is why he entered all the dimensions before passing away in the 4th Jhana. If you want to know weakness of my position u can just ask

We should be careful tho in this kind of discussion as it is speculative we should be going out of our way to avoid risk saying wrong things imo. Also think it is off-topic and deserves own thread.

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DooDoot
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:05 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:15 pm
probably? what % of certainty? do you have a different explaination? Is my explaination contradicted? is my explaination not logical or does it require a leap of faith or unreasonable assumptions?
Nibbana is an ayatana in Ud 8.1 therefore Nibbana appears to be included in 'The All'. Yet Nibbana appears not an 'idea' because all 'ideas' are conditioned things but Nibbana is the Unconditioned. Possibly Bhikkhu Bodhi's & most other scholars' translation of "mind objects" for 'dhamme' is better.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:07 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:05 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:15 pm
probably? what % of certainty? do you have a different explaination? Is my explaination contradicted? is my explaination not logical or does it require a leap of faith or unreasonable assumptions?
Nibbana is an ayatana in Ud 8.1 therefore Nibbana appears to be included in 'The All'. Yet Nibbana appears not an 'idea' because all 'ideas' are conditioned things but Nibbana is the Unconditioned. Possibly Bhikkhu Bodhi's & most other scholars' translation of "mind objects" for 'dhamme' is better.
I am familiar with commentary and have no problem with it but i dont know the pali terminology.
I've been trying to explain it before so many times, the Idea of X is not X... Also the word "idea" is english not Pali, it does not surprise me that some people on account of ignorance would have a problem with these passages. Pali does have it's weaknesses too where English has comparative strengths.

There is a book on this that is not Buddhist even;
https://tzmvirginia.files.wordpress.com ... k-scan.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/Tyranny-Words-St ... merReviews
. This book largely follows Korzybsky's work on General Semantics, the science of determining what we really mean when we say something. Read Science and Sanity: An Introduction to Non-Aristotelian Systems and General Semantics (International Non-Aristotelian Library) to find out what's going on.
. Or you could check out a good popularization, Drive Yourself Sane: Using the Uncommon Sense of General Semantics. Third Edition.
. Back in the 1940s, everybody was denying the very logic of this idea. In the late 1940s, it was obvious, and everybody claimed to have invented it themselves. In the 1960s and later, the basis of this field got watered down to 'just semantics' and got ignored.
there is also a Buddhist book on this and the first book (which is no longer disputed and based on combined efforts of a whole scientific field) PROVES the position of the ladder;
https://what-buddha-said.net/library/pd ... eality.pdf
Image
This info is the "nitty gritty detail" imo.
:anjali:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:43 am
The Idea, The Concept, The Word "Nibbana", even tho a unique Concept, is part of All as any other Idea.
In the Sabba Sutta, the Pali word is 'dhamme', which does not mean "ideas". The translation "ideas" by Thanissaro appears to be wrong. Yet you make a long reply based on what is probably wrong understanding. In other words, translations are probably not the best way to form views about Dhamma.
btw maybe it is not clear,
it is unique in sense of that concept is defined by it's attributes. In sense that Paris is the only concept that has the characteristic of being the capitol of France today, so is the Concept of Nibbana the only conception that has the characteristics: uncaused & possible. Still a concept tho not the manifestation of possible reality, we can only conceptualize it, more words more accuracy but we will never cause "IT", we will cause cessation of "Not-It". Therefore i say "idea of X" does not equal "X". Ie "Me" = "Me", your "Conception of Me" =/= "Me", your conception may be true or untrue, if it is impossible then it is untrue, if possible then it can be true or false, with more accuracy, with more true info, u can prove what is false but you can never distill "Conception of Me" down to "Me" you will always have residue, its like the Pi number.

First Noble Truth: Changing & possible. Possible therefore true.

Second Noble Truth: Change is caused, not uncaused

Third Noble Truth: uncaused & possible

Fourth Noble Truth: Exhaustion of causes is caused, not uncaused

good as is now
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:36 am, edited 4 times in total.

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