Stream Entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
jasday
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Stream Entry

Post by jasday » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:25 pm

How do I experience stream entry?
How will I know when I've experienced stream entry?
I'm a lay person and I'm just beginning to meditate 1-2x per day for 20 minutes each time following the breath and being mindful, and my efforts have proved to show improvement. I have been meditating for years (inconsistently) and now with consistency and I haven't seen too much fruit. I feel more at peace. I feel that I'm better able to follow the path. I've given up alcohol, I've in the last month been going to the sangha. I know the consistency and extra effort: abstaining from alcohol, donating food to the sangha, and meditating at least every day for at least 20 minutes (mindfulness of breathing) is recent, but it's a big leap considering that I've spent years trying to get to this point.

I want to know what it will take to attain stream entry. I enjoy the increasing benefits of happiness the path brings in this life, but I would be very disappointed to find that I fall backwards either in this life or after this life.
Please help.

I need a good answer that will show me the way.


Thanks all!

SarathW
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:00 pm

Technically, Sotapanna is a person who has eradicated three fetters.

The three fetters which the sotāpanna eradicates are:[24][25]



1) Self-view — The view of substance, or that what is compounded (sankhata) could be eternal in the five aggregates (form, feelings, perception, intentions, cognizance), and thus possessed or owned as 'I', 'me', or 'mine'. A sotāpanna doesn't actually have a view about self (sakkāya-ditthi), as that doctrine is proclaimed to be a subtle form of clinging.[26]

2)Clinging to rites and rituals - Eradication of the view that one becomes pure simply through performing rituals (animal sacrifices, ablutions, chanting, etc.) or adhering to rigid moralism or relying on a god for non-causal delivery (issara nimmāna). Rites and rituals now function more to obscure, than to support the right view of the sotāpanna's now opened dharma eye. The sotāpanna realizes that deliverance can be won only through the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. It is the elimination of the notion that there are miracles, or shortcuts.

3)Skeptical doubt - Doubt about the Buddha, his teaching (Dharma), and his community (Sangha) is eradicated because the sotāpanna personally experiences the true nature of reality through insight, and this insight confirms the accuracy of the Buddha’s teaching. Seeing removes doubt, because the sight is a form of vision (dassana), that allows one to know (ñāṇa).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81panna
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

dharmacorps
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:01 pm

Are you following the 5 precepts? You may want to consider speaking to a teacher or monastic.

paul
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by paul » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:05 pm

To eliminate the fetter of doubt and ‘gain a footing in the dhamma’, the practitioner should begin contemplation of impermanence in materiality, the simple observation of dissolution of the body and material forms:

“To Upali the householder, as he was sitting right there, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. Then — having seen the Dhamma, having reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more questioning — Upali the householder gained fearlessness and was independent of others with regard to the Teacher's message.”
— MN 56

Note: ‘The Dhamma eye’ is a characteristic of stream entry.

They should also begin a study of the progress of insight:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... gress.html

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Idappaccayata
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Idappaccayata » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:12 pm

There's a free book online called Into the Stream By Thanissaro Bhikkhu on this topic that I would highly recommend.
The furniture may be exquisite,
And the bars of solid gold,
But once the bird realizes that the cage is a cage,
It finds within that cage
No joy

- Ajahn Jayasaro

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:19 pm

Sadhu,

It would take resolving on attaining the yet-unattained and burning like fire close to freedom:)

In all seriousness you seem to have developed the Five Spiritual Faculties;
  • Concentration
    Mindfulness
    Persistence
    Conviction
    Wisdom
However they appear, you will have automatically have the corresponding Five Strenghts of one in Training;
strength of conviction
strength of conscience
strength of concern
strength of persistence
strength of discernment
So one can train Develope Four Bases of Mental Powers;
  • base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion
    base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence
    base of power endowed with concentration founded on intent
    base of power endowed with concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion
This is how he trains himself in regards to resolves and discernment, same formula for discerment;
'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.'
"And how is desire overly sluggish? Whatever desire is accompanied by laziness, conjoined with laziness, that is called overly sluggish desire.

"And how is desire overly active? Whatever desire is accompanied by restlessness, conjoined with restlessness, that is called overly active desire.

"And how is desire inwardly restricted? Whatever desire is accompanied by sloth & drowsiness, conjoined with sloth & drowsiness, that is called inwardly restricted desire.

"And how is desire outwardly scattered? Whatever desire is stirred up by the five strings of sensuality, outwardly dispersed & dissipated, that is called outwardly scattered desire.
Further training his Psychic Powers;
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 0-piya.pdf Here is a goo analysis.
  • He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front.
    There is the case where a monk's perception of what is in front & behind is well in hand, well-attended to, well-considered, well-penetrated[grasped] by means of discernment.
    • What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below.
    'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'
    • [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night - by means of an awareness open & unhampered — develop a brightened mind.
    "And how does a monk — by means of an awareness open & unhampered — develop a brightened mind? There is the case where a monk has the perception of light, the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day] well in hand & well-established.
    So now having these Strenghts&Faculties however dull or intense they appear a Disciple is to live by and in dependence on them.
    Having established himself in solitude or appropriate company, he does not engage in wrong livelihood.
    Always mindful he is to cultivate the Seven Factors of Enlightenment;
    rightviewftw wrote:
    Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:44 pm
    Sati - Mindfulness
    Dhamma Vicaya - Investigation, Investigative Knowledge , Analysis , investigation-of-states
    Viriya - Energy , Effort , Persistence, Energy
    Piti - Joy , Happiness/Rapture , Delightful Satisfaction , Rapture
    Passadhi - Tranquility , Calm, Serenity ,
    Samadhi - Concentration
    Upekkha - Equanimity

    These are the Seven Enlightenment Factors and common english translations.
    The Seven Factors of Awakening are good to study as telling them to another can heal the person it is said.
    A person like this should remain focused on unattractiveness with regard to the body, percipient of loathsomeness with regard to food, percipient of non-delight with regard to the entire world, (and) focused on inconstancy with regard to all fabrications and establish firmly the perception of death within him.

    This is how he dwells firmly resolved on the highest good, percepient of danger in smalles transgression.
    Practising The Four Satipatthana, Always Mindful he should firmly establish himself in the training of Four Satipatthanas.
    Practising jhāna, not footloose,
    Not remorseful, nor negligent;
    That bhikkhu would stay in quiet
    Places for meditation and sleep.

    They would not sleep much,
    But be ardent, developing wakefulness;
    They would abandon laziness, deceit, jokes, games,
    And sex, together with other frivolities.
    A big factor will be getting good instructions. I recomend Basic Mahasi Method to learn basic noting and there are some booklets and videos by Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu. One should listen to the Dhamma a lot.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

jmccoy
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by jmccoy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:25 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:00 pm
Technically, Sotapanna is a person who has eradicated three fetters.

The three fetters which the sotāpanna eradicates are:[24][25]



1) Self-view — The view of substance, or that what is compounded (sankhata) could be eternal in the five aggregates (form, feelings, perception, intentions, cognizance), and thus possessed or owned as 'I', 'me', or 'mine'. A sotāpanna doesn't actually have a view about self (sakkāya-ditthi), as that doctrine is proclaimed to be a subtle form of clinging.[26]

2)Clinging to rites and rituals - Eradication of the view that one becomes pure simply through performing rituals (animal sacrifices, ablutions, chanting, etc.) or adhering to rigid moralism or relying on a god for non-causal delivery (issara nimmāna). Rites and rituals now function more to obscure, than to support the right view of the sotāpanna's now opened dharma eye. The sotāpanna realizes that deliverance can be won only through the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. It is the elimination of the notion that there are miracles, or shortcuts.

3)Skeptical doubt - Doubt about the Buddha, his teaching (Dharma), and his community (Sangha) is eradicated because the sotāpanna personally experiences the true nature of reality through insight, and this insight confirms the accuracy of the Buddha’s teaching. Seeing removes doubt, because the sight is a form of vision (dassana), that allows one to know (ñāṇa).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81panna
Can it be said that a Sotapanna may still be fettered by attachment to sensual desires?

SarathW
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:32 am

Can it be said that a Sotapanna may still be fettered by attachment to sensual desires?
Agree there are ten fetters and they are eliminated gradually with four attainments.

Read four planes of liberation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:02 am

jmccoy wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:25 am
Can it be said that a Sotapanna may still be fettered by attachment to sensual desires?
Yes it is right to say so.
Sensual Desire and Aversion are weakened with attainment of Sakidagami and removed at Non-Return.
Remaining Ignorance, Conceit, Restlessness and Craving for Existence are removed with attainment of Arahantship.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Crazy cloud » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:39 am

jasday wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:25 pm
How do I experience stream entry?

How will I know when I've experienced stream entry?
Maybe by watching one's own mind being more inclined to stillness than noise, and every time you try to get it interested in worldly stuff, it gets bored very quickly and drops back to cooling down and finding stillness. The world sticks less and less and there is nothing you can do about it because the heart/citta knows it's real home better than you do.

You might know this when you stop worrying about it.
but I would be very disappointed to find that I fall backwards either in this life or after this life.
Please help.
Why? ... If the precepts make life more simplistic and wise, what is there to be disappointed about, and don't forget that nobody has promised you anything at all in the first place.

Be well and bright!

:smile:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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Zom
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by Zom » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:06 pm

How will I know when I've experienced stream entry?
I'm a lay person and I'm just beginning to meditate 1-2x per day for 20 minutes each time following the breath and being mindful, and my efforts have proved to show improvement.

I have been meditating for years (inconsistently) and now with consistency and I haven't seen too much fruit.
And you won't.

If you really want stream-entry, you should first read about what is that and how people get it. There are some thousands of suttas you can start exploring 8-) Only there you can find correct answer.

justindesilva
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by justindesilva » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:58 pm

jasday wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:25 pm
How do I experience stream entry?
How will I know when I've experienced stream entry?
I'm a lay person and I'm just beginning to meditate 1-2x per day for 20 minutes each time following the breath and being mindful, and my efforts have proved to show improvement. I have been meditating for years (inconsistently) and now with consistency and I haven't seen too much fruit. I feel more at peace. I feel that I'm better able to follow the path. I've given up alcohol, I've in the last month been going to the sangha. I know the consistency and extra effort: abstaining from alcohol, donating food to the sangha, and meditating at least every day for at least 20 minutes (mindfulness of breathing) is recent, but it's a big leap considering that I've spent years trying to get to this point.

I want to know what it will take to attain stream entry. I enjoy the increasing benefits of happiness the path brings in this life, but I would be very disappointed to find that I fall backwards either in this life or after this life.
Please help.

I need a good answer that will show me the way.


Thanks all!
If you feel that you function as six senses (salayatana) seperately and therefore there is no ' I' or me then you have overcome sakkaya ditthi.
If you do function in your needs with reasoning as of arya ashtangika marga ( noble eight fold path) with an understanding then you have overcome functioning with rules and rituals.
If you have no doubts about Budda, Damma, and sangha beyond doubts then you have overcome vicikicca.
Now by overcoming sakkaya ditthi, silabbata paramasa and vicikicca one is able to overcome the 1st three fetters.

jasday
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by jasday » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:39 pm

:buddha1:

Thanks for all the answers.

There are people here saying that it's not a waste of time that I practice the path and not attain stream entry since it's at least some happiness I would have been without in this life because I have heard and practiced the teachings of the buddha. I agree.

There are people here reciting the eradication of the first 3 fetters and how when removed, one attains stream entry. I know this, and thanks for clarifying some hidden points within that teaching that I might have missed.

There are some people here saying that I need to feel it out and that I will know for myself.

To be clear, even with all this help. I still don't have an understanding. Maybe I was unclear, which might be the case here but what I was trying to find out is how I know for sure.

Based off of what I said in my original post, I am a consistent with my meditation (daily), I follow the 5 precepts decently well. If anything, I could honestly say that slip up a few times a week by saying something that's mildly hurtful, chattering about nonsense, or gossiping (never too bad) and since practicing consistently, I've been getting better every day. With that said, I do not cling to rites and rituals and never have been a person to do that in my whole time being alive. I also don't believe in a self, although I don't know if that's just conceptual or experiential. I don't I am meant to experience it with wisdom in my meditation or if it's enough that I haven't yet but I don't doubt that it's true that there is no self to be found, conceptually, at least. And for the most part, I don't doubt the buddha, dhamma, and the sangha. I've been practicing for years (again, I've been consistent and good about my practice as of lately). I always have had the dhamma on my mind. And I have experienced the joy of meditation, good feelings from living more morally, and the joys of having wisdom. If I ever doubt, it's about the rebirth, and the supramundane aspects of buddhism (powers, rebirth, karma, etc). When it comes the supramundane aspects, I take it as a theory that I respect and regard as most likely being true but I don't accept as fact since I haven't experienced these things.

[thanks if you're still reading]

With that said, I don't feel any different. I don't 'feel' like a stream entrant. How do you know for sure, lol!
Am I? Aren't I? Has anyone had these questions as well?

JohnK
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by JohnK » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:32 pm

jasday wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:39 pm
:buddha1:

I also don't believe in a self, although I don't know if that's just conceptual or experiential...And for the most part, I don't doubt the buddha, dhamma, and the sangha...I don't 'feel' like a stream entrant.
Am I? Aren't I?
Based on my reading (and not any attainment), I think you have too many qualifiers to be.
As a practical matter, it may not make any difference: Would you stop practicing either way -- with so much more to attain regardless?
Keep on keepin' on.
(It might be useful to try to see the cause of your question; to see/know any dukkha and its cause.) :anjali:
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Stream Entry

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:16 pm

jasday wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:39 pm
With that said, I don't feel any different. I don't 'feel' like a stream entrant. How do you know for sure, lol!
Am I? Aren't I? Has anyone had these questions as well?
There is a different classification of what makes a Sotapanna and there are several types, Cula-Sotapanna assured of a favorable rebirth capable of falling away in the next reincarnation. Dhamma-Follower & Faith-Follower
At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The ear
… The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is impermanent, changing,
becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is
called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the
plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of
doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in
the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of
stream-entry.

“One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient
degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed
course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the
worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in
hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away
without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.
The Sotapanna who has the Path has the Attainment of Nibbana, this one knows that he is a Sotapanna and the others probably do rightfully suspect it but i dont see how they can be certain of their status.

I already wrote quite a lot on what it will take to get the Path but it is basically intensifying the training as much and for as long as possible.

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