Why forth Jhana is not infinitude of consciousness?

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SarathW
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Why forth Jhana is not infinitude of consciousness?

Post by SarathW » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:20 pm

Why forth Jhana is not Infinitude of consciousness (vinnanancayatan)?
Last edited by SarathW on Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

thepea
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Re: Why forth Jhana is not boundless consciousness?

Post by thepea » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:30 pm

Restricted to the body.

justindesilva
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Re: Why forth Jhana is not boundless consciousness?

Post by justindesilva » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:25 pm

thepea wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:30 pm
Restricted to the body.
Could I say that jana is linked with the mind while boudlessness is with the state of nirvana. pls see Bahiya sutta.

perkele
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Re: Why forth Jhana is not boundless consciousness?

Post by perkele » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:11 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:25 pm
thepea wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:30 pm
Restricted to the body.
Could I say that jana is linked with the mind while boudlessness is with the state of nirvana. pls see Bahiya sutta.
Sarath seems to be speaking about the "dimension of inifinitude of consciousness" or "boundless consciousness" (Pali viññāṇañcāyatana, Skt. vijñānānantyāyatana) ["boundless" or "unbounded" meaning simply "infinite in extent", and not "unbound" = "free"/"released" as in nibbāna]:
AN 9.34: Nibbana Sutta - Unbinding wrote:"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with form, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness (viññāṇañcāyatana). If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of space, that is an affliction for him...
Last edited by perkele on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nwad
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Re: Why forth Jhana is not boundless consciousness?

Post by Nwad » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:08 pm

In my opinion is beacause untill 4th jhana, ones consciousness is no more limited (bounded) by his own 6 sense base but now hes consciousness can be in contact with phenomenons outside of his sense base, so what we call iddhi apears, but actualy is just a boundless consciousness...
:juggling:

2600htz
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Re: Why forth Jhana is not boundless consciousness?

Post by 2600htz » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:35 pm

Hello:

Because in order to experience formless realms you first have to drop gross perceptions and the perception of the body.
(And this are still present in the forth jhana, even if you have the equanimity).

Regards.
Last edited by 2600htz on Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: Why forth Jhana is not infinitude of consciousness?

Post by SarathW » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:06 pm

Sarath seems to be speaking about the "dimension of inifinitude of consciousness" or "boundless consciousness" (Pali viññāṇañcāyatana, Skt. vijñānānantyāyatana) ["boundless" or "unbounded" meaning simply "infinite in extent", and not "unbound" as in nibbāna]:
Thanks OP corrected.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

perkele
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Re: Why forth Jhana is not infinitude of consciousness?

Post by perkele » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:36 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:06 pm
Thanks OP corrected.
The OP was not incorrect. In common speech, "boundless" = "unbounded" means about the same as "infinite" (although mathematically there is a distinction).

But "unbound", on the other hand, is something different (meaning something like "free", or "released"). Bhikkhu Thanissaro (somewhat idiosyncratically) translates nibbāna as "unbinding", and parinibbuti as "totally unbound".

But "boundlessness" = "unboundedness" = "infinitude" (ananta - see also discussion about the strange composite word forms) is something different than "unbinding" (= "release", "freedom", "liberation") ~=~ nibbāna.

In short:
"boundless" = "unbounded" = "infinite"
but
"unbound" = "free" or "released" (~ nibbāna)

So:
"unbounded" ≠ "unbound"

I just mentioned this, because justindesilva said
boudlessness is with the state of nirvana

Viññāṇañcāyatana, unboundedness, is about infinitude. Not about freedom or release or nibbāna (which Thanissaro translates as "unbinding").

I think English can be confusing. :thinking:

SarathW wrote:Why forth Jhana is not Infinitude of consciousness (vinnanancayatan)?
But my question for you is: Why do you think fourth jhāna (= serene equanimity and peace, unification of mind; no pleasure or pain) should be equal to infinitude of consciousness (viññāṇañcāyatana)? Why do you think they are the same?

This is the description of jhāna 4 from Samaññaphala sutta:
DN 2: Samaññaphala sutta wrote:“And then, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain—as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress—he enters and remains in the fourth jhāna: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here & now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.
Some other details from Poṭṭhapāda sutta:
DN 9: Poṭṭhapāda sutta wrote:“And further, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain—as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress—the monk enters & remains in the fourth jhāna: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. His earlier perception of a refined truth of equanimity ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of neither pleasure nor pain. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of neither pleasure nor pain. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.
And about infinitude of consciousness (and also infinitude of space), there is not really much description:
DN 9: Poṭṭhapāda sutta wrote:"And then, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' the monk enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. His earlier perception of a refined truth of the dimension of the infinitude of space ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.
I also would like to know clearly what the arupa-jhānas of infinitude of space and infinitude of consciousness really are. What is the difference between them? I don't really know. I have never found a detailed description in the suttas.

What is Vinnanacayatana "The Base of Infinite Consciousness" in Arupavacara Jhana?

But fourth jhāna seems quite clear from the description.
In second jhāna there is much rapture and joy.
In third jhāna there is calming down of that rapture and joy, but there remains pleasure in the body, and instead of the rapture and joy comes equanimity.
In fourth jhāna, the equanimity remains and gets stronger, all bodily feelings cease (or you don't pay attention to them anymore): there is neither pleasure nor pain. Pure equanimity and mindfulness.

Is there anything left unclear for you about fourth jhāna? Why do you think it is like infinity of consciousness?

Saengnapha
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Re: Why forth Jhana is not infinitude of consciousness?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:11 am

perkele wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:36 pm

I also would like to know clearly what the arupa-jhānas of infinitude of space and infinitude of consciousness really are. What is the difference between them? I don't really know. I have never found a detailed description in the suttas.
Here is a talk by Bhante Punnaji on the jhanas, both form and formless. I think he is very good at explaining this.

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