Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

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No_Mind
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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:50 pm

bodom wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:49 pm
There is no easy answer to this question. Would I leave my wife and children to run off to ordain no. Was it wrong of the Buddha to leave his wife and child? In hindsight no because ultimately it lead to there own awakening. But to say that those of here who have answered are " are incapable of comprehending the simple question I wrote (which leads me to suspect many here do not understand the suttas they read but are driven by addiction of the exotic)" is a bit rude yes. We have all answered your question the best we could.

:namaste:
Of course I did not mean you or Sam or DooDoot or Binoculaar or thepea or most ... could not understand me

If I have conveyed that meaning then I apologize for the distress caused.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:53 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:50 pm
bodom wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:49 pm
There is no easy answer to this question. Would I leave my wife and children to run off to ordain no. Was it wrong of the Buddha to leave his wife and child? In hindsight no because ultimately it lead to there own awakening. But to say that those of here who have answered are " are incapable of comprehending the simple question I wrote (which leads me to suspect many here do not understand the suttas they read but are driven by addiction of the exotic)" is a bit rude yes. We have all answered your question the best we could.

:namaste:
Of course I did not mean you or Sam or DooDoot or Binoculaar or thepea or most ... could not understand me

If I have conveyed meaning that then I apologize for the distress caused

:namaste:
No problem. It is a touchy subject. I appreciate you bringing up the concern because yes many people have been bothered by this aspect of the Buddhas life and it's good to discuss.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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No_Mind
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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:57 pm

bodom wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:53 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:50 pm
bodom wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:49 pm
There is no easy answer to this question. Would I leave my wife and children to run off to ordain no. Was it wrong of the Buddha to leave his wife and child? In hindsight no because ultimately it lead to there own awakening. But to say that those of here who have answered are " are incapable of comprehending the simple question I wrote (which leads me to suspect many here do not understand the suttas they read but are driven by addiction of the exotic)" is a bit rude yes. We have all answered your question the best we could.

:namaste:
Of course I did not mean you or Sam or DooDoot or Binoculaar or thepea or most ... could not understand me

If I have conveyed meaning that then I apologize for the distress caused

:namaste:
No problem. It is a touchy subject. I appreciate you bringing up the concern because yes many people have been bothered by this aspect of the Buddhas life and it's good to discuss.

:namaste:
And I appreciate you (as a moderator and person of learning regarding Dhamma) lending legitimacy to my question.

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:57 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:23 pm

Many of you misunderstand the question. When he left he did not know he was going to become the Buddha .. he was just an ordinary man .. more sensitive than most probably .. who was abandoning his wife and child

How does the last sentence sit with you is what I am asking?

:namaste:
When people leave to get a job, they do not know they are going to get one, nor do they know if they will be able to even get money to send back to begin with. They may even end up in jail. The last sentence sits with me in the same way that a person leaving to get money sits with me. If it was wrong for the Buddha to leave, then it's even more wrong for a man to leave to go get money, since money is much less valuable. But, it's not wrong for a man to leave to get a job. Therefore, it's even less wrong for the Buddha to do what he did.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:59 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:57 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:23 pm

Many of you misunderstand the question. When he left he did not know he was going to become the Buddha .. he was just an ordinary man .. more sensitive than most probably .. who was abandoning his wife and child

How does the last sentence sit with you is what I am asking?

:namaste:
When people leave to get a job, they do not know they are going to get one, nor do they know if they will be able to even get money to send back to begin with. They may even end up in jail. The last sentence sits with me in the same way that a person leaving to get money sits with me. If it was wrong for the Buddha to leave, then it's even more wrong for a man to leave to go get money, since money is much less valuable. But, it's not wrong for a man to leave to get a job. Therefore, it's even less wrong for the Buddha to do what he did.
For the umpteenth time .. one does not leave for a job or go to war unannounced and in middle of the night.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:02 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:59 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:57 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:23 pm

Many of you misunderstand the question. When he left he did not know he was going to become the Buddha .. he was just an ordinary man .. more sensitive than most probably .. who was abandoning his wife and child

How does the last sentence sit with you is what I am asking?

:namaste:
When people leave to get a job, they do not know they are going to get one, nor do they know if they will be able to even get money to send back to begin with. They may even end up in jail. The last sentence sits with me in the same way that a person leaving to get money sits with me. If it was wrong for the Buddha to leave, then it's even more wrong for a man to leave to go get money, since money is much less valuable. But, it's not wrong for a man to leave to get a job. Therefore, it's even less wrong for the Buddha to do what he did.
For the umpteenth time .. one does not leave for a job or go to war unannounced and in middle of the night.

:namaste:
With regards to how it sits with me, that doesn't matter.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by befriend » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:51 pm

Not selfish of the siddartha to try to seek the end of suffering for himself leaving his wife and children, he saw suffering for the first time in his whole life seeing the divine messengers of a sick man dying man etc.. his quest to end suffering may have never succeeded it was a dart of intense compassion when he saw that there was suffering for the first time imagine what it was like for siddartha being in a palace your whole life not knowing suffering than seeing a dying man? I would be sickened at the thought of staying in a palace and hanging out with my wife and kids as opposed to finding a way to end this terrible suffering which is found in the reality of life.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Idappaccayata » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:49 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:59 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:57 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:23 pm

Many of you misunderstand the question. When he left he did not know he was going to become the Buddha .. he was just an ordinary man .. more sensitive than most probably .. who was abandoning his wife and child

How does the last sentence sit with you is what I am asking?

:namaste:
When people leave to get a job, they do not know they are going to get one, nor do they know if they will be able to even get money to send back to begin with. They may even end up in jail. The last sentence sits with me in the same way that a person leaving to get money sits with me. If it was wrong for the Buddha to leave, then it's even more wrong for a man to leave to go get money, since money is much less valuable. But, it's not wrong for a man to leave to get a job. Therefore, it's even less wrong for the Buddha to do what he did.
For the umpteenth time .. one does not leave for a job or go to war unannounced and in middle of the night.

:namaste:

He didn't leave in the middle of the night. How many times does someone have to say that? You won't accept later historical accounts as authentic, so why are you trying to base your opinion about this topic on a later commentarial story?

If you grant that the suttas are the closest thing to authentic we have, your argument falls through. And if you don't grant that, the argument is also useless and based on speculation
The furniture may be exquisite,
And the bars of solid gold,
But once the bird realizes that the cage is a cage,
It finds within that cage
No joy

- Ajahn Jayasaro

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:42 pm

Idappaccayata wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:49 pm


He didn't leave in the middle of the night. How many times does someone have to say that? You won't accept later historical accounts as authentic, so why are you trying to base your opinion about this topic on a later commentarial story?

If you grant that the suttas are the closest thing to authentic we have, your argument falls through. And if you don't grant that, the argument is also useless and based on speculation
An ordinary father would have welcomed the joyful tidings, but Prince Siddhattha, the extraordinary father as he was, exclaimed – “An impediment (rāhu) has been born; a fetter has arisen”. The infant son was accordingly named Rāhula by his grandfather. The palace was no longer a congenial place to the contemplative Prince Siddhattha. Neither his charming young wife nor his lovable infant son could deter him from altering the decision he had taken to renounce the world. He was destined to play an infnitely more important and benefcial role than a dutiful husband and father or even as a king of kings. The allurements of the palace were no more cherished objects of delight to him. Time was ripe to depart. He ordered his favourite charioteer Channa to saddle the horse Kanthaka, and went to the suite of apartments occupied by the princess. Opening the door of the chamber, he stood on the threshold and cast his dispassionate glance on the wife and child who were fast asleep. Great was his compassion for the two dear ones at this parting moment. Greater was his compassion for suffering humanity. He was not worried about the future worldly happiness and comfort of the mother and child as they had everything in abundance and were well protected. It was not that he loved them the less, but he loved humanity more. Leaving all behind, he stole away with a light heart from the palace at midnight, and rode into the dark, attended only by his loyal charioteer. Alone and penniless he set out in search of Truth and Peace. Thus did he renounce the world. It was not the renunciation of an old man who has had his fll of worldly life. It was not the renunciation of a poor man who had nothing to leave behind. It was the renunciation of a prince in the full bloom of youth and in the plenitude of wealth and prosperity – a renunciation unparalleled in history. It was in his twentyninth year that Prince Siddhattha made this historic journey. He journeyed far and, crossing the river Anomā, rested on its banks. Here he shaved his hair and beard and handing over his garments and ornaments to Channa with instructions to return to the palace, assumed the simple yellow garb of an ascetic and led a life of voluntary poverty. The ascetic Siddhattha, who once lived in the lap of luxury, now became a penniless wanderer, living on what little the charitably-minded gave of their own accord.
The Buddha and His Teachings. Venerable Nārada Mahāthera.
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
Cued to right scene. Bertolucci would not make an error. His subject matter advisors must have had lot of inputs in this crucial scene.



At last count three mods (out of five) and one admin (out of two) had commented in this thread.

"argument is also useless and based on speculation" does not hold true therefore.

That is the last time I answer a meaningless question in this thread. You do not like the thread or if it makes you uncomfortable .. please ignore it. What I will and will not write will not be explained to you.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Idappaccayata » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:58 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:42 pm
Idappaccayata wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:49 pm


He didn't leave in the middle of the night. How many times does someone have to say that? You won't accept later historical accounts as authentic, so why are you trying to base your opinion about this topic on a later commentarial story?

If you grant that the suttas are the closest thing to authentic we have, your argument falls through. And if you don't grant that, the argument is also useless and based on speculation
An ordinary father would have welcomed the joyful tidings, but Prince Siddhattha, the extraordinary father as he was, exclaimed – “An impediment (rāhu) has been born; a fetter has arisen”. The infant son was accordingly named Rāhula by his grandfather. The palace was no longer a congenial place to the contemplative Prince Siddhattha. Neither his charming young wife nor his lovable infant son could deter him from altering the decision he had taken to renounce the world. He was destined to play an infnitely more important and benefcial role than a dutiful husband and father or even as a king of kings. The allurements of the palace were no more cherished objects of delight to him. Time was ripe to depart. He ordered his favourite charioteer Channa to saddle the horse Kanthaka, and went to the suite of apartments occupied by the princess. Opening the door of the chamber, he stood on the threshold and cast his dispassionate glance on the wife and child who were fast asleep. Great was his compassion for the two dear ones at this parting moment. Greater was his compassion for suffering humanity. He was not worried about the future worldly happiness and comfort of the mother and child as they had everything in abundance and were well protected. It was not that he loved them the less, but he loved humanity more. Leaving all behind, he stole away with a light heart from the palace at midnight, and rode into the dark, attended only by his loyal charioteer. Alone and penniless he set out in search of Truth and Peace. Thus did he renounce the world. It was not the renunciation of an old man who has had his fll of worldly life. It was not the renunciation of a poor man who had nothing to leave behind. It was the renunciation of a prince in the full bloom of youth and in the plenitude of wealth and prosperity – a renunciation unparalleled in history. It was in his twentyninth year that Prince Siddhattha made this historic journey. He journeyed far and, crossing the river Anomā, rested on its banks. Here he shaved his hair and beard and handing over his garments and ornaments to Channa with instructions to return to the palace, assumed the simple yellow garb of an ascetic and led a life of voluntary poverty. The ascetic Siddhattha, who once lived in the lap of luxury, now became a penniless wanderer, living on what little the charitably-minded gave of their own accord.
The Buddha and His Teachings. Venerable Nārada Mahāthera.
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
Cued to right scene. Bertolucci would not make an error. His subject matter advisors must have had lot of inputs in this crucial scene.



At last count three mods (out of five) and one admin (out of two) had commented in this thread.

"argument is also useless and based on speculation" does not hold true therefore.

That is the last time I answer a meaningless question in this thread. You do not like the thread or if it makes you uncomfortable .. please ignore it. What I will and will not write will not be explained to you.

:namaste:
So you're saying the commentaries are more authentic than what the Buddha actually said? The suttas directly contradict the story you just shared. So you're saying the suttas are wrong And the commentaries right? Please answer that question.

And you just shared a movie about Tibetan Buddhism. Is that supposed to help your point?
Last edited by Idappaccayata on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The furniture may be exquisite,
And the bars of solid gold,
But once the bird realizes that the cage is a cage,
It finds within that cage
No joy

- Ajahn Jayasaro

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by DNS » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:59 pm

Maybe the Buddha-to-be did know that he would attain full awakening.

According to MN 123 his first words were:

“ I’m the highest in this world, the best and the foremost. This is my last birth, I will not be born again.’ "

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:11 pm

Idappaccayata wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:58 pm

So you're saying the commentaries are more authentic than what the Buddha actually said? The suttas directly contradict the story you just shared. So you're saying the suttas are wrong And the commentaries right? Please answer that question.
List those suttas. I want to believe he did not leave at night (as I have written before)
Idappaccayata wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:58 pm

And you just shared a movie about Tibetan Buddhism. Is that supposed to help your point?
I see no reason to doubt the movie's depiction. Since it is the story I have read for forty years. A director of that calibre does not usually make big mistakes. I am sure well known Buddhist experts were consulted.

If you show it is wrong no one will be more pleased than me.

A caveat .. after you post those suttas one or two well known writers here will have to back up your conclusion ..

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:18 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:59 pm
Maybe the Buddha-to-be did know that he would attain full awakening.

According to MN 123 his first words were:

“ I’m the highest in this world, the best and the foremost. This is my last birth, I will not be born again.’ "
I was thinking about that story too David. He took seven steps immediately after leaving his mother's womb and proclaimed this. I also wonder if his parents ever told him about the wise men and them foreseeing him become a Buddha or wheel turning monarch in his life. I know his father took great pains to see that he would never encounter the outside world and leave but maybe someone let it slip what the prophecy held for him? All in all its useless speculation as we all know how it turned out anyway for him but its interesting to think about.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Idappaccayata
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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Idappaccayata » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:44 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:11 pm
Idappaccayata wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:58 pm

So you're saying the commentaries are more authentic than what the Buddha actually said? The suttas directly contradict the story you just shared. So you're saying the suttas are wrong And the commentaries right? Please answer that question.
List those suttas. I want to believe he did not leave at night (as I have written before)
Idappaccayata wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:58 pm

And you just shared a movie about Tibetan Buddhism. Is that supposed to help your point?
I see no reason to doubt the movie's depiction. Since it is the story I have read for forty years. A director of that calibre does not usually make big mistakes. I am sure well known Buddhist experts were consulted.

If you show it is wrong no one will be more pleased than me.

A caveat .. after you post those suttas one or two well known writers here will have to back up your conclusion ..

:namaste:

MN 26 has already been quoted here multiple times. Why do you see fault with that? To me that's as plain of an explanation as possible. I will look for more suttas when I have time.

Why would you need "a well know writer here" to verify? Can't you just read the sutta yourself?

A look into mythological archetypes will show you that this story of leaving in the middle of the night in search of some greater purpose is a well used historical narrative. It has been used for many other figures throughout history. It isn't solely a buddhist myth.

You say "A director of that calibre does not usually make big mistakes. I am sure well known Buddhist experts were consulted." He's making a movie about tibetan buddhism and reincarnation. Obviously, he isnt looking for historical buddhism, so that is a direct contradiction in itself. I don't need to go into all the ways tibetan buddhism contradicts the suttas, but my point is just that you can't rely on a director as an authority figure for early buddhism if that clearly isn't their objective.
The furniture may be exquisite,
And the bars of solid gold,
But once the bird realizes that the cage is a cage,
It finds within that cage
No joy

- Ajahn Jayasaro

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by thepea » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:59 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:33 pm
And condemn her to the poorhouse and lifetime of not knowing where I am or why I went away :? What are you saying!! I once lost my dog for a day .. nearly went crazy with grief .. and we are talking of human being leaving with no explanation
:namaste:
Yes, you can leave and ordain.

The question becomes can you live with your actions, would you be able to do this and enter as a monastic and meditate and put an end to suffering?
Or would you be wrought with guilt and spend your time creating more and more misery until you had a nervous breakdown and ran home?
Apparently mr gotama was cool with leaving his family.

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