Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

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dylanj
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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:28 am

No it wasn't wrong. As a result not only was his son liberated & his wife (presumably?) established in the path - far more valuable than the suffering of attachment he would've given them in a domestic life - but so were innumerable other beings. You should dispel this concern & establish yourself in reverence for the Lord Buddha. :anjali:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:36 am

By the way, the righteousness of this is not dependent on its result, I am simply using it to display how far from wrong this was.

Renunciation is right. Attachment & bondage is not. The Buddha did not bring his wife & son any harm by leaving them, nor did he have an obligation to stay & pander to their attachment to him, which really just would've been a disservice.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:46 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:36 am
The Buddha did not bring his wife & son any harm by leaving them, nor did he have an obligation to stay & pander to their attachment to him, which really just would've been a disservice.
How do you know he did not bring them harm? We have no insight into the mind of Yasodhara. How did she feel on being dumped? How does a woman feel when the husband walks away from a marriage?

And are you saying a father/husband has no obligation?

Note to mods - I know he was unmarried but I have to play the Devil's Advocate since answer is directed at me.

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:51 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:46 am
dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:36 am
The Buddha did not bring his wife & son any harm by leaving them, nor did he have an obligation to stay & pander to their attachment to him, which really just would've been a disservice.
How do you know he did not bring them harm? We have no insight into the mind of Yasodhara. How did she feel on being dumped? How does a woman feel when the husband walks away from a marriage?

And are you saying a father/husband has no obligation?

Note to mods - I know he was unmarried but I have to play the Devil's Advocate since answer is directed at me.

:namaste:
I know he did not bring them harm because it was an act with right intention, the intention of renunciation.

How Yasodhara felt is completely her own responsibility, we cannot hold people emotionally hostage by blaming them for our unhappiness when they don't do what we want. If she suffered that is her fault, due to her attachment.

A father/husband should be good in that role & maintain it to the extent that it's skillful for them to do so, but when a higher option transcending the household life is open to them then they should take it.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:58 am

I hope .. that Buddhists in this forum do not actually act with the selfishness that some of them appear to exhort in this thread.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:27 am

Saṃyutta Nikāya 4

Connected Discourses with Mara
8. He Delights

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta’s Grove, Anathapiṇḍika’s Park.

Then Mara the Evil One approached the Blessed One and recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One:

“One who has sons delights in sons,
One with cattle delights in cattle.

Acquisitions truly are a man’s delight;
Without acquisitions one does not delight.”

The Blessed One:

“One who has sons sorrows over sons,
One with cattle sorrows over cattle.
Acquisitions truly are a man’s sorrow;
Without acquisitions one does not sorrow.”

Then Mara the Evil One … disappeared right there.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:38 am

Udāna 1.8

Saṅgāmajīsuttaṃ 8
The Discourse about Saṅgāmajī

Thus I heard: At one time the Gracious One was dwelling near Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Wood, at Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then at that time venerable Saṅgāmajī had arrived at Sāvatthī to see the Gracious One.

Venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife heard: “Master Saṅgāmajī it seems has arrived at Sāvatthī”, and taking her little boy she went to Jeta’s Wood.

Then at that time venerable Saṅgāmajī was dwelling for the day sat at the root of a certain tree. Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife went to venerable Saṅgāmajī, and after going, she said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

After that was said, venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

For a second time venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

For a second time venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

For a third time venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

For a third time venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife, having put the boy down in front of venerable Saṅgāmajī, went away, saying: “This is your son, ascetic, you must take care of him.”

But venerable Saṅgāmajī did not look at the boy, nor did he speak to him.

Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife having gone not far away, looking round saw that venerable Saṅgāmajī was neither looking at the boy, nor was he speaking to him. Having seen that this occured to her: “This ascetic does not even have need of a son.” Therefore, after turning back and taking the boy, she went away.

The Gracious One saw with the divine-eye which is purified, and surpasses that of normal men, that venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife had such bad manners. Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance:

“In her coming he does not rejoice, in her leaving he does not grieve,
Saṅgāmajī ‘Victorious in Battle’, free from the shackle: him I call a brāhmaṇa.”
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:55 am

"Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The one who practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that of others. The one who practices for the benefit of others but not for his/her own. The one who practices for his/her own benefit but not for that of others. The one who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others.

"Just as a firebrand from a funeral pyre — burning at both ends, covered with excrement in the middle — is used as fuel neither in a village nor in the wilderness: I tell you that this is a simile for the individual who practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that of others. The individual who practices for the benefit of others but not for his/her own is the higher & more refined of these two. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit but not for that of others is the highest & most refined of these three. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others is, of these four, the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. Just as from a cow comes milk; from milk, curds; from curds, butter; from butter, ghee; from ghee, the skimmings of ghee; and of these, the skimmings of ghee are reckoned the foremost — in the same way, of these four, the individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others is the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme.

"These are the four types of individuals to be found existing in the world."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:59 am

Then, Ānanda, the potter Ghaṭīkāra and the brahman youth Jotipāla, gladdened, roused, incited, delighted by the Lord Kassapa’s … talk on dhamma, having rejoiced in what the Lord Kassapa … had said, having given thanks and risen from their seats, greeting the Lord Kassapa … they departed keeping their right sides towards him.

Then, Ānanda, the brahman youth Jotipāla spoke thus to the potter Ghaṭīkāra: ‘How is it that you, dear Ghaṭīkāra, on hearing this dhamma, do not go forth from home into homelessness?’”

‘But, dear Jotipāla, do you not know that I look after my blind and ageing parents?’

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn81
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Dharmasherab » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:01 pm

We need to remember that the life of the Siddhartha Bodhisatta was an example. The life it self helps to answer so many questions which arise in the follower. Him leaving his home, leaving his wife and baby behind was an act of renunciation.

Lets create a scenario in our minds thinking that the Siddhartha Bodhisatta did not marry and lived as a single man. Lets assume he left home whiles he was single.

Then those who are already married with children will question themselves "what would have happened if Prince Siddhartha was married? Does this mean that he would have just stayed with his wife instead of renunciation?"

But now that incident did happen these questions need not come into mind. It just shows that the quest for Enlightenment is the highest purpose of life even above the things that typical people value the most (such as one's spouse and children).

Please be aware that the commonly accepted version of the history is that Prince Siddhartha walked away without the consent of Princess Yasodara. But alternate version of the history say that the Prince Siddhartha did discuss about this with Princess Yasodara and they came to an agreement. That version of the history shows that Princess Yasodara was very understanding and was supportive to his decision. We do not have to be too attached to the idea that which version of the history is correct because well documented history with specific details is just less than 200 years old.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by thepea » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:27 pm

In order for me to sit the long courses within Goenka tradition my wife must consent, if not I will be turned down.
Now I’m just picking away at my craving and aversion I’m not ready for a 12 day sitting of adhitthana with continuous awareness, absolutely crushing through cravings to arahantship.
But on these courses you do work with more refined states, I can’t imagine going for a month in silence if I knew I left my wife in a difficult situation with two kids to care for. I imagine it would be torturous and not very productive.
I can only go once a year now on retreat as the kids are at an age where they require a great deal of attention from both of us. If arahantship is in my future for this lifetime it will have to wait until the kids are older, and moved out, and my wife is healthy, and I’m ok with that.
I’ve done a great deal of introspection and life is much easier now it’s almost like dhamma works with your life situation you get out of it what you need and when you need it.
Mr gotama must have needed to meditate as a recluse and not merely wanted to. He may have wanted to stay and raise his son but needed to end suffering. I don’t think you can push off a spiritual calling or choose when it will call.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:36 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:01 pm
Please be aware that the commonly accepted version of the history is that Prince Siddhartha walked away without the consent of Princess Yasodara. But alternate version of the history say that the Prince Siddhartha did discuss about this with Princess Yasodara and they came to an agreement. That version of the history shows that Princess Yasodara was very understanding and was supportive to his decision. We do not have to be too attached to the idea that which version of the history is correct because well documented history with specific details is just less than 200 years old.
If I could go back to 2013 .. I wish I knew one fact about Buddhism back then

That there are alternative facts in Buddhism .. that there is no one voice, no single version.


:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by binocular » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:47 am

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:36 am
that there is no one voice, no single version.
Duh. Of course. What else?

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Dharmasherab » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:59 pm

Remember that the life of the Buddha was an example not like any other. Looking at the life of the Buddha helps to answer so many questions that might come to our mind when learning the Dhamma (the teaching).

Let's say that Prince Siddhartha left home before he got married and became a Buddha. A common question people will keep asking is "I am married, what would the Buddha say about renunciation if one is married with kids?". But now that the Buddha set the standard that all samsaric things which we value are insignificant compared to the pursuit of Nirvana, we don't even need to ask that question. Now those questions are not even brought up because what he did answers such questions to show that even our strongest attachments need to be abandoned - even the ones which are considered to be conventional by society's standards. His life was an example to demonstrate to us that the path to enlightenment starts with letting go.

Also if you look further into the life story of Buddha, his ex-wife Yasodara and son Rahula both ordained under him and both became enlightened to escape from Samsara for good. It just shows that whatever perils that happen in Samsara they are all insubstantial when we reach the summit of Nirvana. Everything in the Samsaric world seems so small and unimportant and even silly when looking at that from the point of Nirvana according to Buddhism.

Some misunderstand that the Prince Siddhartha’s departure from home was a selfish act. This is not true. It was actually a 'selfless' act and not selfish. This is because his intention during this time was not to find enlightenment only for himself but to find it for the sake of other sentient beings that were affected by the suffering of samsara. The Prince Siddartha left his wife and child for a Noble purpose of pursuing enlightenment for the benefit of other beings – he didn’t leave his wife to find 9 other different wives

Enlightenment means one is free from Craving (Lobha), Aversion (Dvesha) and Ignorance (Moha). Enlightenment can only happen in its complete form only when these three poisons are uprooted even in their most subtle forms and not only gross forms. This is called 'Anushaya'. Imagine a coal fire which is turned off. You can see the glowing coal among the ash heaps but even though this is not on fire it doesn't mean that it is safe to approach. Before removing the coal with your hands you must extinguish it absolutely to discard the coal and the ash without causing injury. So the fire has to be extinguished in its entirety. Likewise, all the 3 poisons along with all the mental defilements (Klesha) have to be uprooted in gross, intermediate and subtle levels for complete liberation which means there is no room or reason for any attachment.

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Re: Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Dharmasherab » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:03 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:36 am
Dharmasherab wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:01 pm
Please be aware that the commonly accepted version of the history is that Prince Siddhartha walked away without the consent of Princess Yasodara. But alternate version of the history say that the Prince Siddhartha did discuss about this with Princess Yasodara and they came to an agreement. That version of the history shows that Princess Yasodara was very understanding and was supportive to his decision. We do not have to be too attached to the idea that which version of the history is correct because well documented history with specific details is just less than 200 years old.
If I could go back to 2013 .. I wish I knew one fact about Buddhism back then

That there are alternative facts in Buddhism .. that there is no one voice, no single version.


:namaste:
I know in our dualistic scientific world we are encouraged to accept one truth or the other. But it is important in Buddhism not to always have this way of looking at things. Remember this is history much older than the time of well-documented history. So there is no problem of taking up both versions or the truth as lying somewhere inbetween the two versions. It is the message that matters - that renunciation is an important part of the path.

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