Gautama a.k.a. Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

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perkele
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by perkele »

No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:12 amI had specifically requested in OP to avoid "historical cultural appropriation" (East vs West and this kind of shock is well absorbed in arranged marriages argument) but then a member went ahead and posted a video from YT and I had to correct him/her.

Rather odd that in such cases how the rebuke is always for me, the responder, rather than for the offender.
Because in my eyes you are much more the one here "culturally appropriating" rather than that other "offender". You are the one seeing "Indian culture" as "mine" - and including/"appropriating" 2500 year old Indian culture. DooDoot just interpreted it/tried to explain it from more of an outsider or historian's perspective - which of course is not "his own experience" and quite likely not totally accurate either. But at least he did not claim that it is.
No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:12 amI would like this thread to be free of such biases. Just judge it from your point of view.
I've done that.
:namaste:
:anjali: (I feel like I'm culturally appropriating this emoji, but it's done in friendly spirit :P)
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No_Mind
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind »

perkele wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:43 am
No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:12 amI had specifically requested in OP to avoid "historical cultural appropriation" (East vs West and this kind of shock is well absorbed in arranged marriages argument) but then a member went ahead and posted a video from YT and I had to correct him/her.

Rather odd that in such cases how the rebuke is always for me, the responder, rather than for the offender.
Because in my eyes you are much more the one here "culturally appropriating" rather than that other "offender". You are the one seeing "Indian culture" as "mine" - and including/"appropriating" 2500 year old Indian culture. DooDoot just interpreted it/tried to explain it from more of an outsider or historian's perspective - which of course is not "his own experience" and quite likely not totally accurate either. But at least he did not claim that it is.

How would you like me to have corrected him .. by being from Amazon rain forest? I kept culture and nationality out of it till he/she forced me to reply using "cultural appropriations". I would think that he/she baited me to reply.

:namaste:
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pilgrim
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by pilgrim »

No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:29 am
pilgrim wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:27 am
No_Mind wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:16 pm

Abandoning ones wife and kid is not wrong? Are you from earth or at least a nearby planet?

:namaste:
In times of war, thousands of young men leave their families to go kill other young men who have left their families and they are hailed as heroes and cheered on. The Buddha left his family to liberate mankind and somehow we think it is wrong? The fault in perception lies with us.
I really hate to be the Devil's Advcate and risk the ire of fundamentalist members ..

Those who go to war .. do so with knowledge of their wife.

Image

:namaste:
So it's not about leaving the wife but not letting her know what he's up to? I'm sure she noticed his absence fairly soon. And she need not worry about him being killed in a war. So it's all good.
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind »

pilgrim wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:06 am
No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:29 am
pilgrim wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:27 am

In times of war, thousands of young men leave their families to go kill other young men who have left their families and they are hailed as heroes and cheered on. The Buddha left his family to liberate mankind and somehow we think it is wrong? The fault in perception lies with us.
I really hate to be the Devil's Advcate and risk the ire of fundamentalist members ..

Those who go to war .. do so with knowledge of their wife.

:namaste:
So it's not about leaving the wife but not letting her know what he's up to? I'm sure she noticed his absence fairly soon. And she need not worry about him being killed in a war. So it's all good.
Your astonishing insight is quite breathtaking

:namaste:
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perkele
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by perkele »

No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:50 amI kept culture and nationality out of it till he/she forced me to reply using "cultural appropriations".
No. You have been culturally appropriating from the beginning by accusing others of culturally appropriating your 2500 year old Indian culture when they try to give a historical outsider's perspective and making references to what they think or believe or have heard about ancient Indian social mores, and said that no one should dare to do such a thing - except for yourself: citing sannya customs and how abandoning one's wife should be done correctly to not fall into sin etc... (because it is "your" culture)

Of course you did not say what you think about those sannya customs and if you think they are indeed unquestionable moral standards. (But it seems to me you almost regard them as such, and maybe think that anyone who would abandon his wife should be judged by these rather rigid standards - but I'm not sure about that. And you deny any other interpretations of how morally acceptable or unacceptable in the eyes of the world [or that culture] would or might have been, when they only come as auxiliary arguments to try to support from another angle one's own point of view by crying "cultural appropriation!" - That is cultural appropriation.)
No_Mind wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:29 am Reading about us cannot make you understand us. What is exotic to you (man leaving wife and son in middle of the night in search of enlightenment) is a mundane story to me.

:namaste:
:toilet:

"man leaving wife and son in middle of the night ..."
That is not exotic at all.

"... in search of enlightenment"
That maybe yes. But it's not necessarily changing how morally acceptable or unacceptable the act of leaving clandestine in the middle of the night is. (If it ever happened in that way. The suttas tell about the bodhisatta's weeping parents when he shaved his head and went away in a robe. No mention of his wife and her reaction, and if she was informed before the fact or not. Maybe she was not. And I would not even necessarily see that as wrong. It could have been the least harmful way.)

My own point of view, without reference to what is morally right or wrong in the eyes of the world in that culture back then in India, is that I see nothing morally wrong with it, given the circumstance that his wife and son could be expected to be well taken care of.

You seem to automatically assume that anyone who would not see such an act as inherently morally reprehensible could only do so by way of an excuse like "but he was to become the Buddha", "but the culture back then (... of which I don't know anything first-hand, but nevertheless...) might/would have seen it as acceptable". People may try to bring such perspectives into play to underpin their own point of view. And yes, I do think that the fact that his quest was for enlightenment has much weight. But I don't think that the morality or immorality of that act hinges solely on such an attenuating circumstance. I think that leaving a relationship, suddenly and unexpectedly, but in circumstances where one does not need to worry that the others are not well taken care of, is not morally wrong. Simple as that.

(I'm signing off for today. I think you might do good to try clarifying what exactly is inherently morally wrong with a husband leaving his wife (possibly without notice) when he knows she will be well taken care of - without reference to social mores of a specific culture. That's just what I think you should think about and clarify for yourself. But of course you can think whatever you think is right to think.
I have nothing more to add to this argument.

:anjali:)
Last edited by perkele on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by DooDoot »

No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:44 am.. she was probably blamed and she blamed herself for not having been a good enough/attractive enough/sensual enough wife for Gautama to remain a householder.
I disagree. I am glad to find you have such high opinion of women. Generally only a very self-absorbed woman blames herself. Do you imagine Gotama's wife would not have noticed the following moods of Gotama?
Monks, I lived in refinement, utmost refinement, total refinement. My father even had lotus ponds made in our palace: one where red-lotuses bloomed, one where white lotuses bloomed, one where blue lotuses bloomed, all for my sake. I used no sandalwood that was not from Varanasi. My turban was from Varanasi, as were my tunic, my lower garments, & my outer cloak. A white sunshade was held over me day & night to protect me from cold, heat, dust, dirt, & dew.

I had three palaces: one for the cold season, one for the hot season, one for the rainy season. During the four months of the rainy season I was entertained in the rainy-season palace by minstrels without a single man among them, and I did not once come down from the palace. Whereas the servants, workers, & retainers in other people's homes are fed meals of lentil soup & broken rice, in my father's home the servants, workers, & retainers were fed wheat, rice, and meat.

Even though I was endowed with such fortune, such total refinement, the thought occurred to me: 'When an untaught, run-of-the-mill person, himself subject to aging, not beyond aging, sees another who is aged, he is horrified, humiliated, & disgusted, oblivious to himself that he too is subject to aging, not beyond aging. If I — who am subject to aging, not beyond aging — were to be horrified, humiliated, & disgusted on seeing another person who is aged, that would not be fitting for me.' As I noticed this, the [typical] young person's intoxication with youth entirely dropped away.

Even though I was endowed with such fortune, such total refinement, the thought occurred to me: 'When an untaught, run-of-the-mill person, himself subject to illness, not beyond illness, sees another who is ill, he is horrified, humiliated, & disgusted, oblivious to himself that he too is subject to illness, not beyond illness. And if I — who am subject to illness, not beyond illness — were to be horrified, humiliated, & disgusted on seeing another person who is ill, that would not be fitting for me.' As I noticed this, the healthy person's intoxication with health entirely dropped away.

Even though I was endowed with such fortune, such total refinement, the thought occurred to me: 'When an untaught, run-of-the-mill person, himself subject to death, not beyond death, sees another who is dead, he is horrified, humiliated, & disgusted, oblivious to himself that he too is subject to death, not beyond death. And if I — who am subject to death, not beyond death — were to be horrified, humiliated, & disgusted on seeing another person who is dead, that would not be fitting for me.' As I noticed this, the living person's intoxication with life entirely dropped away.

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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind »

perkele wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:04 am
No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:50 amI kept culture and nationality out of it till he/she forced me to reply using "cultural appropriations".
No. /../
Hold on. I asked the question without any prejudice whatsoever and nil cultural appropriation.

Whether you like it or do not like it due to an accident of history, I was born 400 miles from where he lived and taught

If my question causes your inner turmoil to spill out .. I cannot be held responsible for your unresolved daddy issues.

Doodoot brought the word Indian into this thread not me .. be biased but no so obviously biased is all I ask ..
DooDoot wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:01 am
No_Mind wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:31 pm Something has always upset me about Buddha's life. I first read his life story at about age of 7 or so. And almost four decades has passed but the nagging feeling remains.
If a Westerner has this issue, OK, it is understandable. But an Indian. :roll: In this video, Gotama is easily substituted for the girl footballer.


perkele wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:04 am
No_Mind wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:29 am Reading about us cannot make you understand us. What is exotic to you (man leaving wife and son in middle of the night in search of enlightenment) is a mundane story to me.

:namaste:
And why quote post from another thread here? How is that relevant here? But .. looking down memory lane it all makes sense in a way.
perkele wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 12:04 am Hello No_Mind,

I don't know if you are still reading here or maybe at least get a notification.

I hope so! I very much liked your contributions in general. But then you left in a huff, feeling somehow generally insulted apparently, because of some other topic, I guess. [I had already on many occasions wanted to criticize you for being too thin-skinned and prideful. "Typically Indian", I had thought many times, feeling reminded of some quarrels that I had had with my boss (an Indian), where I had insulted him just by some simple casual (and not entirely positive, but not even meant as criticism directed at him) remarks.
I think there are some incisive cultural differences between Indians (and probably related cultures) and "westerners" (which probably make up the majority of the people here) and their behaviour in a crowd, and how they relate as individuals to the crowd, and how much they may feel bothered by what some other individuals say in the crowd. This is probably a very stark generalization, but my impression is that in a "crowd" environment westerners tend to have less propensity for feeling bothered individually by "what people say". But that is another topic maybe.
As you put it .. I am thin skinned, prideful typical Indian :lol:

Wonder who came into this thread with prejudice and cultural something or other.

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by DooDoot »

No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:34 amDoodoot brought the word Indian into this thread not me .. be biased but no so obviously biased is all I ask ..
So Gotama was not Indian and did not live in an Indian culture where, according to commentaries, Gotama was married at 16 years old. :roll:

Btw, did you watch the awesome video? :thumbsup:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Idappaccayata »

bodom wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:49 am
DNS wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:33 am
No_Mind wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:55 pm At very least he would have asked permission from his wife to leave her for a decade and then to return (more speculation I know).
I heard a Dhamma talk once from a monk who stated the Buddha actually did ask permission. There is a sutta reference (don't know which one right now) where the Buddha talks about his leaving the palace and describes his parents and wife weeping after he informs them of his wish to go out as an ascetic; not the typical story we hear of him sneaking out in the night while everyone is sleeping.
All of these storied originated from the commentaries. There is virtually no info to be found in the suttas.

:namaste:
I actually read a sutta today about this. MN but I can't recall which one. The Buddha describes that his family was upset and crying as they watched him shave his head and beard, and put in the yellow robes before leaving. The story about sneaking out is, I think even later than the early commentaries.
Last edited by Idappaccayata on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by DooDoot »

Idappaccayata wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:27 am I actually read a sutta today about this. MN but I can't recall which one.
MN 26
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:19 am
No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:34 amDoodoot brought the word Indian into this thread not me .. be biased but no so obviously biased is all I ask ..
So Gotama was not Indian and did not live in an Indian culture where, according to commentaries, Gotama was married at 16 years old. :roll:

Btw, did you watch the awesome video? :thumbsup:
Just for the record he was born in Nepal. Do not push the burden on to us. I am tired of being accused of sharing the same country with him.

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Idappaccayata »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:28 am
Idappaccayata wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:27 am I actually read a sutta today about this. MN but I can't recall which one.
MN 26
Where he describes his time with his previous teachers? That's the one!

So if we know that the story about sneaking out is a later addition, why is there such an argument about this being immoral? If his wife knew what he was doing, and she was well taken care of, how can anyone argue that this is unethical? You could make a stronger case that's it's more immoral to stay in a relationship where you aren't emotionally available.
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by Idappaccayata »

No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:33 am
DooDoot wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:19 am
No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:34 amDoodoot brought the word Indian into this thread not me .. be biased but no so obviously biased is all I ask ..
So Gotama was not Indian and did not live in an Indian culture where, according to commentaries, Gotama was married at 16 years old. :roll:

Btw, did you watch the awesome video? :thumbsup:
Just for the record he was born in Nepal. Do not push the burden on to us. I am tired of being accused of sharing the same country with him.

:namaste:
The burden of being born in a somewhat similar position on the globe as someone who lived 2600 years ago? Are you being serious? Also why would that be a burden?
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero
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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by No_Mind »

Idappaccayata wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:38 am The burden of being born in a somewhat similar position on the globe as someone who lived 2600 years ago? Are you being serious? Also why would that be a burden?
Just 68 posts in .. you are not going to understand. Me and this forum have long and fragile history.

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Re: Buddha abandoning his wife and child - was it wrong?

Post by DooDoot »

No_Mind wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:33 amJust for the record he was born in Nepal.
In the mid-18th century, Prithvi Narayan Shah, a Gorkha king, set out to put together what would become present-day Nepal.



Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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