What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Saengnapha
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:29 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:29 am
First, establish your attention in satipatthana.
The sutta instructs to establish 'mindfulness' ('sati') rather than 'attention' ('manasikara'). That is the literal meaning of Satipatthana, namely, 'establishments of mindfulness'. It is not called 'Manasikarapatthana'. If attention is established, 'stream-entry' might not occur because the mind might not be 'fluid' enough & be too rigid to 'let go'. Instead, practise might be 'zombie-like'.
There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore.

MN 118
All I can tell you is that your definitions are being re-evaluated. Attention is esssential with satipatthana. I think I will side with Bhante P rather than your literal, traditional, translations which you seem very attached to. There is a movement that has been occurring in Sri Lanka which is unsatisfied with the traditional translations that have been made and used by non-Pali speakers and translators. I'm not making this stuff up. Being rigid is not an issue with proper attentiveness.

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Nicolas
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Nicolas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:35 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:07 pm
Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:02 pm
All non-arahant ariyas will reborn somewhere. And they all have right views.
Questionable idea. More evidence is required.
DooDoot, do you mean to say that a sotapanna has ended birth?

Also, in reference to the sotapanna, this at-most-seven bhava, what does it refer to if not future being/becoming/existence/manifestation?

paul
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by paul » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:33 pm

Answering the OP question:

Mindfulness is a factor of enlightenment and yoniso manasikara is the nutriment for the factors of enlightemnent:
“When one attends carefully, bhikkhus, unarisen sensual desire does not arise and arisen sensual desire is abandoned. When one attends carefully, unarisen ill will … sloth and torpor … restlessness and remorse … doubt does not arise and arisen doubt is abandoned. Also, the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development … the unarisen enlightenment factor of equanimity arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of equanimity comes to fulfilment by development.”---SN V 84, Sutta Central.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:32 am

When one attends carefully
Could you give me an example?
Thnks
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:27 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:07 am
All I can tell you is that your definitions are being re-evaluated. Attention is esssential with satipatthana. I think I will side with Bhante P rather than your literal, traditional, translations which you seem very attached to. There is a movement that has been occurring in Sri Lanka which is unsatisfied with the traditional translations that have been made and used by non-Pali speakers and translators. I'm not making this stuff up. Being rigid is not an issue with proper attentiveness.
This is a thread to distinguish finer details where as your posts are mere common language. You seem to be oblivious what is being discussed here; let alone comprehend what satipatthana is. The Buddha advised to give attention to satipatthana. Thus attention & sati here obviously two different things. Its like saying give attention to listening & give attention to helping. The attention is the same but the objects of attention are different. Similarly, giving attention to satipatthana is different to giving attention to studying the teachings. Mindfulness is not attention & attention is not mindfulness. To assert otherwise is simply to have no respect for the Dhamma of the Buddha.

Saengnapha
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:39 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:27 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:07 am
All I can tell you is that your definitions are being re-evaluated. Attention is esssential with satipatthana. I think I will side with Bhante P rather than your literal, traditional, translations which you seem very attached to. There is a movement that has been occurring in Sri Lanka which is unsatisfied with the traditional translations that have been made and used by non-Pali speakers and translators. I'm not making this stuff up. Being rigid is not an issue with proper attentiveness.
This is a thread to distinguish finer details where as your posts are mere common language. You seem to be oblivious what is being discussed here; let alone comprehend what satipatthana is. The Buddha advised to give attention to satipatthana. Thus attention & sati here obviously two different things. Its like saying give attention to listening & give attention to helping. The attention is the same but the objects of attention are different. Similarly, giving attention to satipatthana is different to giving attention to studying the teachings. Mindfulness is not attention & attention is not mindfulness. To assert otherwise is simply to have no respect for the Dhamma of the Buddha.
Please disregard anything I say as it is not going to make any difference to you or anyone else. All language is common and unable to convey what things really are. Perhaps you'll argue about that, too?

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:43 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:39 am
Please disregard anything I say as it is not going to make any difference to you or anyone else. All language is common and unable to convey what things really are. Perhaps you'll argue about that, too?
This is a study thread. Since you appear to have no interest in the Pali suttas whatsoever, why are you post here & vilifying with U.G violence those who are interested in studying Pali, making slanderous remarks like below? :|
than your literal, traditional, translations which you seem very attached to

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:43 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:39 am
Please disregard anything I say as it is not going to make any difference to you or anyone else. All language is common and unable to convey what things really are. Perhaps you'll argue about that, too?
This is a study thread. Since you appear to have no interest in the Pali suttas whatsoever, why are you post here & vilifying with U.G violence those who are interested in studying Pali, making slanderous remarks like below? :|
than your literal, traditional, translations which you seem very attached to
Oh, please. Look in the mirror.

I quoted what the old Sri Lankan monk said but you don't accept that either.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:49 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:46 am
Oh, please. Look in the mirror.

I quoted what the old Sri Lankan monk said but you don't accept that either.
I am not trashing a thread therefore i don't need to look into any mirror. This thread is not about what an old monk believes. It is an examination of the sutta teachings. Regardless, it is not for insulting people who study the suttas.

You did not quote the old monk anyway. You just provided a 2nd hand opinion of what you think the old monk said.

:focus:

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:59 am

paul wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:33 pm
Answering the OP question: Mindfulness is a factor of enlightenment and yoniso manasikara is the nutriment for the factors of enlightemnent:

“When one attends carefully, bhikkhus, unarisen sensual desire does not arise and arisen sensual desire is abandoned. When one attends carefully, unarisen ill will … sloth and torpor … restlessness and remorse … doubt does not arise and arisen doubt is abandoned. Also, the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development … the unarisen enlightenment factor of equanimity arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of equanimity comes to fulfilment by development.”---SN V 84, Sutta Central.
This quote is similar to another quote (below). Since I cannot access SC, I cannot confirm if it is the same quote. However, as you suggested, these quotes appear to demonstrate yoniso manasikara & sammasati are definitely two different things.
And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness? There are, bhikkhus, things that are the basis for the enlightenment factor of mindfulness: frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn46.51
Now, what is the food for the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen? There are mental qualities that act as a foothold for mindfulness as a factor for Awakening [well-purified virtue & views made straight]. To foster appropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:05 am

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:35 pm
DooDoot, do you mean to say that a sotapanna has ended birth?

Also, in reference to the sotapanna, this at-most-seven bhava, what does it refer to if not future being/becoming/existence/manifestation?
Thanks N

I think i posted before that I have read words such as 'becoming'', 'production' & 'manifestation' used in the Pali suttas in ways that are definitely not about reincarnation. While I have no conflict with the assumption these matters pertain to 'the future', I think there is no real evidence this future is about reincarnation. Suttas are diverse. In the 1st ever sutta, the sotapanna realised all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation. If a sotapanna changed this view of 'cessation' to a view of seven more lifetimes, this would become very confusing. The sotapanna would start to have thoughts of "I", which are contrary to the yoniso manasikara in MN 2. For exampel, in suttas like MN 143, a sotapanna is literally reincarnated in a brahma world & returns to earth to pay respects to Sariputta. Yet this sotapanna appears to be still clutching at views about self. In addition, the sotapanna is said to be the very same person, as follows:
That is what the deva's son said. And [thinking], 'The Teacher has approved of me,' he bowed down to me, circled me three times, and then disappeared right there.

Very good, Ananda. Very good, to the extent that you have deduced what can be arrived at through logic. That was Anathapindika the deva's son, and no one else."

MN 143
At least to me, which is why I originally questioned Zom, all of this is very confusing. How can the mind attain stream-entry with all of these views of self reincarnated over 7 lifetimes, similar to the views of self & personhood in MN 143?

It seems Buddhism changed a lot over time thus these matters do not appear to be anything definite to me. Due to contradictions in the suttas, i think we cannot be certain that each suttas was spoken by the Buddha. Thus, returning to the only sutta in the entire Nikayas that refers to "eight bhava", it appears to be merely a guess or speculation this refers to reincarnation, let alone was spoken by the Buddha. In my personal opinion, obscure hidden suttas like this probably should not be used to define the entire teaching & are possibly best ignored. Since a sotapanna has seven more fetters to break through to arahantship, possibly this is the meaning, but who knows? However, I think it does not really matter because the following phrase is simply too obscure to mean anything certain.
Paṭhamaabhabbaṭṭhāna Sutta (AN 6.92) wrote:
abhabbo diṭṭhisampanno puggalo aṭṭhamaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetuṃ.
One accomplished in view is incapable of undergoing an eighth existence [bhava]. (Bodhi)
The following sutta is the closest i could find; since it contains both the words "bhava" and "nibbatte". It appears to be about producing (nibbattati) views of self-existence (attabhāvo) in the here & now (diṭṭhe vā dhamme).
Yaṃ, bhikkhave, lobhapakataṃ kammaṃ lobhajaṃ lobhanidānaṃ lobhasamudayaṃ, yatthassa attabhāvo nibbattati tattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati. Yattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati tattha tassa kammassa vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti, diṭṭhe vā dhamme upapajja vā apare vā pariyāye.

Any action performed with greed — born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up [is produced], there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in the here & now that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

paul
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by paul » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:48 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:32 am
When one attends carefully
Could you give me an example?
“Especially wise attention directed to the impermanent nature of the five aggregates [affected by] clinging has a considerable potential of leading to the destruction of lust and therewith to liberation (SN III 52). It goes without saying that a similar outcome can also be attained if wise attention is directed to the impermanent nature of the senses or their objects (SN IV 142). […]

Cultivated in this way, wise attention can become a powerful tool for de-conditioning the way perception misinterprets the world of experience. The operational mechanism of perceptual misinterpretations through unwise attention is based on the very nature of perception (saññā), whose task is to match information received through the sense doors with mental labels and concepts, leading to various associations and memories.
These concepts and associations are only too often tinged by desire, aversion and delusion, being the outcome of habitual reactions under the influence of defilements. Such habits have been built up throughout the past and continue to be fortified in the present, whenever such reactions recur.
Due to the influence of these habitual reactions and associations, whatever is experienced will be apprehended together with the subjective notions the mind projects onto the data of the senses. Both come together in an almost inextricable mix, and the perceiver is mostly unaware of the degree to which his or her experience is influenced by preconceived notions and thereby mirrors and confirms subjective prejudices.
Unwise and perhaps also somewhat `superficial' attention perpetuates this state of affairs, where the falsification of data through perception remains unquestioned. The remedy here is a wise and penetrative form of attention that goes beyond the
superficial appearance of things in order to come to know their true nature, however much disappointing this may be. Continuous training in wise attention will eventually change the way perception apprehends the world, whereby awareness of the true characteristics of reality will gradually become as ingrained in perceptual appraisal as the earlier habitual reactions.
In view of this potential, it comes as no surprise that wise attention is a central condition for the arising of the awakening factors, just as its opposite unwise attention is responsible for the arising of the hindrances (SN V 94 and SN V 84).”—-“From Grasping to Emptiness”, Analayo.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:21 am

Especially wise attention directed to the impermanent nature of the five aggregates [
So, Yonisomanasikara is the attention cultivated with Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and Asuba.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Saengnapha
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:39 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:49 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:46 am
Oh, please. Look in the mirror.

I quoted what the old Sri Lankan monk said but you don't accept that either.
I am not trashing a thread therefore i don't need to look into any mirror. This thread is not about what an old monk believes. It is an examination of the sutta teachings. Regardless, it is not for insulting people who study the suttas.

You did not quote the old monk anyway. You just provided a 2nd hand opinion of what you think the old monk said.

:focus:
You think what I said was an insult? Were you hurt by it?

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:05 am

paul wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:48 am
Especially wise attention directed to the impermanent nature of the five aggregates [affected by] clinging has a considerable potential of leading to the destruction of lust and therewith to liberation (SN III 52).
This translation appears confusing. The Pali appears to say to pay careful attention to form (rūpaṃ yoniso manasi karotha) in order to see the impermanence of form as it really is (rūpāniccatañca yathābhūtaṃ samanupassatha). It appears it is not yoniso manasikara that "sees" the impermanent nature of form. Instead, it appears yoniso manasikara intentionally directs the mind towards the general direction of form & it is vinnana that sees with wisdom.
Discernment & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns.

MN 43

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