What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:04 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:42 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:51 am
Still, I probably might still have reservations about the translation "attention"; unless I can be convinced otherise. My prior impression was 'manas' refers to 'thinking' rather than 'observing' . For now, I might go for the translation of 'proper or thorough examination', which can incorporate both observing & thinking. :smile:
As Ven. Nyanatiloka points out, the word manasikāra is used in two meanings:

manasikāra 'attention', 'mental advertence', 'reflection'.

1. As a psychological term, attention belongs to the formation-group (sankhāra-kkhandha; s. Tab. II) and is one of the 7 mental factors (cetasika) that are inseparably associated with all states of consciousness (s. cetanā). In M. 9, it is given as one of the factors representative of mind (nāma) It is the mind's first 'confrontation with an object' and 'binds the associated mental factors to the object.' It is, therefore, the prominent factor in two specific classes of consciousness: i.e. 'advertence (āvajjana, q.v.) at the five sense-doors' (Tab. I, 70) and at the mind-door (Tab. I, 71). These two states of consciousness, breaking through the subconscious life-continuum (bhavanga), form the first stage in the perceptual process (citta-vīthi; s. viññāna-kicca). See Vis.M. XIV, 152.

2. In a more general sense, the term appears frequently in the Suttas as yoniso-manasikāra, 'wise (or reasoned, methodical) attention' or 'wise reflection'. It is said, in M. 2, to counteract the cankers (āsava, q.v.); it is a condition for the arising of right view (s. M. 43), of Stream-entry (s. sotāpattiyanga), and of the factors of enlightenment (s. S. XLVI, 2.49,51). - 'Unwise attention' (ayoniso-manasikāra) leads to the arising of the cankers (s. M. 2) and of the five hindrances (s. S. XLVI, 2.51).

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_ ... ikaara.htm
:goodpost:
What is your opinion on my OP question?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:44 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:42 pm
As Ven. Nyanatiloka points out, the word manasikāra is used in two meanings:

manasikāra 'attention', 'mental advertence', 'reflection'.

1. As a psychological term, attention belongs to the formation-group (sankhāra-kkhandha; s. Tab. II) and is one of the 7 mental factors (cetasika) that are inseparably associated with all states of consciousness (s. cetanā).
Thanks for that although i may not necessarily agree with V.N. here because I imagine there can be consciousness without attention; such as when experiencing an object without any intention (such as suddenly hearing a loud noise or happening to see a bird fly into & out of the field of vision).
Dmytro wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:42 pm
In M. 9, it is given as one of the factors representative of mind (nāma) It is the mind's first 'confrontation with an object' and 'binds the associated mental factors to the object.'
Dependent origination may not necessarily describe every consciousness but only consciousness affected/polluted by ignorance. For me, MN 9 is simply describing attention affected/polluted by ignorance; thus becoming ayoniso manasikara.
Dmytro wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:42 pm
It is, therefore, the prominent factor in two specific classes of consciousness: i.e. 'advertence (āvajjana, q.v.) at the five sense-doors' (Tab. I, 70) and at the mind-door (Tab. I, 71). These two states of consciousness, breaking through the subconscious life-continuum (bhavanga), form the first stage in the perceptual process (citta-vīthi; s. viññāna-kicca). See Vis.M. XIV, 152.
This does not appear to be from the suttas.
Dmytro wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:42 pm
2. In a more general sense, the term appears frequently in the Suttas as yoniso-manasikāra, 'wise (or reasoned, methodical) attention' or 'wise reflection'. It is said, in M. 2, to counteract the cankers (āsava, q.v.); it is a condition for the arising of right view (s. M. 43), of Stream-entry (s. sotāpattiyanga), and of the factors of enlightenment (s. S. XLVI, 2.49,51). - 'Unwise attention' (ayoniso-manasikāra) leads to the arising of the cankers (s. M. 2) and of the five hindrances (s. S. XLVI, 2.51).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_ ... ikaara.htm
I think Y.M is probably always inseparable from intention, regardless of context. In case you missed it, I concluded my view, per below:
DooDoot wrote:(i) Samma Sati is to recollect, bring to & keep in mind a pre-existing knowledge. In Latin, Samma Sati might be 'a priori' (lit. "from the earlier"). For example, in practise (MN 117), Samma Sati remembers to strictly uphold the pre-determined Right View, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action & Right Livelihood. For example, in Satipatthana (MN 118), Samma Sati remembers to maintain Right View to keep the mind free from covetousness, distress & other forms of craving & attachment towards all objects (body, feelings, mental states & dhamma) of Satipatthana experience . Thus, Samma Sati conforms.

(ii) Yoniso Manasikara seems to be giving deliberate intentional wise considerate & thorough attention to a subject or object in order to discover, discern or confirm the nature of those subjects or objects. In Latin, Yoniso Manasikara might be 'a posteriori' (lit. "from the latter").

Thus Samma Sati 'conforms' to a formula or principle where as Yoniso Manasikara 'examines & confirms' a formula or principle.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:55 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:46 pm
Bhava does mean "lifetime" or "life" here. For detailed explanation, see:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=27543
This sounds like the view of the Australian monk Bhikkhu Sujato, who appears to be translating 'bhava' universally as 'rebirth'. I checked the link and found nothing compelling at all there, apart from VBB offering a subjective interpretation of the teachings about the meaning of "bhava", which his translation of "sense sphere" existence obviously is shows a misunderstanding. I chose to not reply, so to not interfere with your own personal offerings on the thread. As long we believe we are helping others, it is the thought or intention that counts. With metta

:anjali:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:00 am

hearing a loud noise or happening to see a bird fly into & out of the field of vision
This is the consciousness with attention.
If hear the noise and see the bird it is your attention.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:02 am

This does not appear to be from the suttas.
This is Abhidhamma.
Without Abhidhamma you can't understand subtle consciousness.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:13 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:00 am
This is the consciousness with attention. If hear the noise and see the bird it is your attention.
As was posted by Dymtro & myself, 'manasikara' is 'manas' that is 'sankhara khandha' rather than 'vinnana khandha' ('consciousness). The consciousness of a sudden noise does not appear to arise as a result of intentional attention; even though non-intentional attention may arise at a later time due to the consciousness of a loud noise.

In the suttas, yoniso manasikara always appears to be an act of intentionally directing consciousness, which is called 'wise attention'. Whether yoniso manasikara is used to reflect upon the teachings, examine a condition of dependent origination, give attention to anapanasati or examine the characteristics of a phenomena, in all cases it appears yoniso manasikara is intentional, i.e., with deliberate purposeful intent. i.e., has intention as a pre-requisite condition.
SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:02 am
Without Abhidhamma you can't understand subtle consciousness.
This appears to suggest the Lord Buddha was an imperfect teacher (therefore not really a Buddha) because of neglecting to teach about "subconscious life-continuum (bhavanga)".

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:51 am

This appears to suggest the Lord Buddha was an imperfect teacher
No'. Abhidhamma commentary clarifies Buddha's teaching in details.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:37 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:51 am
Abhidhamma commentary clarifies Buddha's teaching in details.
If Buddha needs clarifying, he was imperfect. The Buddha obviously did not teach about "subconscious life-continuum (bhavanga)", which is obviously unrelated to manasikara.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:44 am

If Buddha needs clarifying, he was imperfect.
:focus:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:46 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:44 am
:focus:
:strawman: :jedi:

I answered your question. The topic is finished. :smile:

Samma Sati remembers & yoniso manasikara investigates.
DooDoot wrote: Samma Sati 'conforms' to a formula or principle where as Yoniso Manasikara 'examines & confirms' a formula or principle.

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:22 am

Samma Sati remembers & yoniso manasikara investigates.
:group: :D
To which limb in Satipathana investigation applies?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:44 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:22 am
To which limb in Satipathana investigation applies?
It appears the 'investigation' in Satipathana (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhaṅgaṃ) is not intentional therefore it is not yoniso manasikara. For me, yoniso manasikara is not a particularly important teaching, which is why I was mistaken about what yoniso manasikara was in my first post here. For me, what is important is to know what Samma Sati is.
For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

AN 11.2
So tathā sato viharanto taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya pavicinati, pavicayati, parivīmaṃsaṃ āpajjati.

Remaining mindful in this way, he [the mind] examines, analyzes & comes to a comprehension of those dhammas (things; realities) with discernment.

MN 118

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:26 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:02 am
This does not appear to be from the suttas.
This is Abhidhamma.
Without Abhidhamma you can't understand subtle consciousness.
Of course you can, Sarath. It is called direct experience.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:29 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:22 am
Samma Sati remembers & yoniso manasikara investigates.
:group: :D
To which limb in Satipathana investigation applies?
First, establish your attention in satipatthana. All your questions will be answered through this activity and being present in the moment.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:29 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:29 am
First, establish your attention in satipatthana.
The sutta instructs to establish 'mindfulness' ('sati') rather than 'attention' ('manasikara'). That is the literal meaning of Satipatthana, namely, 'establishments of mindfulness'. It is not called 'Manasikarapatthana'. If attention is established, 'stream-entry' might not occur because the mind might not be 'fluid' enough & be too rigid to 'let go'. Instead, practise might be 'zombie-like'.
There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore.

MN 118

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