What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:49 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:46 pm
And what happened in Kusinara then? 8-)
I think "folk Buddhist" ideas should not be a source of pride 8-). :roll: What happened at Kusinara is described in SN 22.85, namely, the impermanent & unsatisfactory five aggregates ceased and gone to its end.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html :reading:

Time to go.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Zom » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pm

What happened at Kusinara is described in SN 22.85, namely, the impermanent & unsatisfactory five aggregates ceased and gone to its end.
Good. Then I guess now you can get what is "Buddha" according to conventional truth .) And this very Buddha passed away in Kusinara. And this very stream-winner will reborn 7 lives at most.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:23 am

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pm
And this very Buddha passed away in Kusinara.
This very Buddha may have passed away (parinibbāyi) at Kusinara but it appears this very Buddha could not have "died" ("marana") because the suttas appear to strongly suggest that Buddhas are not subject to "marana". Therefore, I think it is utterly pointless & even misguided for you to insist as you are doing that your views are right view. Instead, what you write is simply your own subjective opinion or interpretation.
Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pm
And this very stream-winner will reborn 7 lives at most.
Sorry. But no evidence for this common idea has been provided by you because the words "lives" or "reborn" do not appear to exist in the Pali in SN 13.1. In the 1st sermon (SN 56.11), the stream-enterer came to the realisation that: "all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation" (rather than "all that is subject to arising is subject to re-arising").
Evaṃ me sutaṃ—​ ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anātha­piṇḍi­kassa ārāme. Atha kho bhagavā parittaṃ nakhasikhāyaṃ paṃsuṃ āropetvā bhikkhū āmantesi: “taṃ kiṃ maññatha, bhikkhave, katamaṃ nu kho bahutaraṃ, yo vāyaṃ mayā paritto nakhasikhāyaṃ paṃsu āropito, ayaṃ vā mahāpathavī”ti?

Etadeva, bhante, bahutaraṃ, yadidaṃ mahāpathavī. Appamattako bhagavatā paritto nakhasikhāyaṃ paṃsu āropito. Neva satimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na sahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na satasahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti mahāpathaviṃ upanidhāya bhagavatā paritto nakhasikhāyaṃ paṃsu āropito”ti. “Evameva kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa diṭṭhi­sam­pannassa puggalassa abhisametāvino etadeva bahutaraṃ dukkhaṃ yadidaṃ parikkhīṇaṃ pariyādiṇṇaṃ; appamattakaṃ avasiṭṭhaṃ. Neva satimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na sahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na satasahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti (approaches; obtains) purimaṃ (former) duk­khak­khan­dhaṃ parikkhīṇaṃ (wasted) pariyādiṇṇaṃ (exhausted) upanidhāya (comparison) yadidaṃ (namely) sattak­khat­tuṃ­paramatā. Evaṃ mahatthiyo kho, bhikkhave, dhammā­bhisa­mayo; evaṃ mahatthiyo dhamma­cak­khu­paṭi­lābho”ti.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most (­paramatā) seven times (sattakkhattuṃ) remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering (duk­khak­khan­dhaṃ). That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:44 am

This very Buddha may have passed away (parinibbāyi) at Kusinara but it appears this very Buddha could not have "died" ("marana") because the suttas appear to strongly suggest that Buddhas are not subject to "marana". Therefore, I think it is utterly pointless & even misguided for you to insist as you are doing that your views are right view. Instead, what you write is simply your own subjective opinion or interpretation.
So you say that there is a Self of Buddha which survived his death. Correct? -)

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:46 am

Zom wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:44 am
So you say that there is a Self of Buddha which survived his death. Correct?
No. Of course not. Where did I ever imply this? Since Nibbana is called The Deathless, obviously the attainment of Nibbana knows no death (marana). It is not myself engaged in the ayoniso manasikaro warned against in MN 2 by posting a stream-enterer is reborn in the future. Surely, any rebirth involves the view of self. Where did the Buddha ever teach mere selfless aggregates are reborn?
This is how he attends unwisely: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?’

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:54 am

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pm
And this very stream-winner will reborn 7 lives at most.
A literal translation was post on DW. Notice the words added in brackets, which are not included in the Pali.
Even so, bhikkhus, for a noble disciple who has [right] view, for a person possessing realization, this is the greater suffering: that which is completely finished and exhausted. Insignificant is what is left over set beside the former heap of suffering that is completely finished and exhausted, it does not amount to a hundredth part, a thousandth part, a hundred thousandth part — [being born again merely] seven times at the most

viewtopic.php?t=12803
In fact, if English is one's mother tongue, the last past of the sutta does not make literal sense; at least to me.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:59 am

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pm
And this very stream-winner will reborn 7 lives at most.
Do the above words declare the aggregates conventionally named 'Zom' is a stream-winner?

:popcorn:

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:18 am

Nicolas wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:18 pm
Paṭhamaabhabbaṭṭhāna Sutta (AN 6.92) wrote: abhabbo (impossible) diṭṭhisampanno (accomplished in view) puggalo (person) aṭṭhamaṃ (eighth) bhavaṃ (existence; becoming) nibbattetuṃ (production).
One accomplished in view is incapable of undergoing an eighth existence [bhava]. (Bodhi)
This is an interesting phrase. Searching for nibbattetuṃ, it an only be found in this sutta. Similar words seem to show these words don't necessarily mean "reincarnation" or "post-mortem rebirth".
Bhikkhus, there are these three taints. What three? The taint of sensuality, the taint of existence (bhava), the taint of ignorance. These are the three taints. The four establishments of mindfulness are to be developed for the full understanding of these three taints

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn47.50
The craving that makes for further becoming (bhava) — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

MN 44
nibbattetuṃ
inf. of nibbatteti
(see nibbatteti)
nibbatteti
ni + vat + e
produces; brings forth.

nibbatteti
to produce, bring forth; practise, perform; to bring to light, find something lost
Aṭṭhānametaṃ, bhikkhave, anavakāso yaṃ kāya­ducca­ritassa iṭṭho kanto manāpo vipāko nibbatteyya. Netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. Ṭhānañca kho etaṃ, bhikkhave, vijjati yaṃ kāya­ducca­ritassa aniṭṭho akanto amanāpo vipāko nibbatteyya. Ṭhānametaṃ vijjatī”ti

284. Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a person misconducting bodily should achieve pleasant agreeable results on account of it. It is possible that a person misconducting bodily should achieve unpleasant disagreeable results on account of it.

AN 1.284
evameva kho, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano rūpaññeva abhi­nib­bat­tento abhinibbatteti, vedanaññeva … pe … saññaññeva … saṅkhāreyeva … viññāṇaññeva abhi­nib­bat­tento abhinibbatteti

Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces.
This sutta is possibly insightful:
Yaṃ, bhikkhave, lobhapakataṃ kammaṃ lobhajaṃ lobhanidānaṃ lobhasamudayaṃ, yatthassa attabhāvo nibbattati tattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati. Yattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati tattha tassa kammassa vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti, diṭṭhe vā dhamme upapajja vā apare vā pariyāye.

Any action performed with greed — born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up [is produced], there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in the here & now that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:35 am

:focus:
SarathW wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:51 am
Hence Samma Sati is Yoniso Manaskikara.
While I have not yet given this topic the appropriate attention, below is more quotes which include both 'mindfulness' & 'manasikara':
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cepi ākaṅkheyya: ‘neva me kāyo kilameyya na cakkhūni, anupādāya ca me āsavehi cittaṃ vimucceyyā’ti, ayameva ānā­pā­nassa­ti­samā­dhi sādhukaṃ manasi kātabbo.

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cepi ākaṅkheyya: ‘ye me gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyeyyun’ti, ayameva ānā­pā­nassa­ti­samā­dhi sādhukaṃ manasi kātabbo.

So if a monk should wish: 'May neither my body be fatigued nor my eyes, and may my mind, through lack of clinging, be released from fermentations,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.

If a monk should wish: 'May my memories & resolves related to the household life be abandoned,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.
There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention — he ferreted them out one after another.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Ko ca, bhikkhave, āhāro anuppannassa vā sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gassa uppādāya, uppannassa vā sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gassa bhāvanāya pāripūriyā? Atthi, bhikkhave, sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṭ­ṭhānīyā dhammā. Tattha yoniso­ma­nasikā­ra­bahu­līkāro— ayamāhāro anuppannassa vā sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gassa uppādāya, uppannassa vā sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gassa bhāvanāya pāripūriyā.

And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness? There are, bhikkhus, things that are the basis for the enlightenment factor of mindfulness: frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn46.51
Someone would say to him: ‘Good man, you must carry around this bowl of oil filled to the brim between the crowd and the most beautiful girl of the land. A man with a drawn sword will be following right behind you, and wherever you spill even a little of it, right there he will fell your head.’

Taṃ kiṃ maññatha, bhikkhave, api nu so puriso amuṃ telapattaṃ amanasikaritvā bahiddhā pamādaṃ āhareyyā”ti?

“No hetaṃ, bhante”.

What do you think, bhikkhus, would that man stop attending to that bowl of oil and out of negligence turn his attention outwards?”

“No, venerable sir.”

I have made up this simile, bhikkhus, in order to convey a meaning. This here is the meaning: ‘The bowl of oil filled to the brim’: this is a designation for mindfulness directed to the body. Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: ‘We will develop and cultivate mindfulness directed to the body, make it our vehicle, make it our basis, stabilize it, exercise ourselves in it, and fully perfect it.’ Thus, bhikkhus, should you train yourselves.”

https://suttacentral.net/pi/sn47.20

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:14 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 am
What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?
OK, after pondering, Piotr's answer was certainly succinct: "Sati is maintenance, manasikara is a direction".

However, reading the quotes from the suttas & meditating upon them, I think:

(i) Samma Sati is to recollect, bring to & keep in mind a pre-existing knowledge. In Latin, Samma Sati might be 'a priori' (lit. "from the earlier"). For example, in practise (MN 117), Samma Sati remembers to strictly uphold the pre-determined Right View, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action & Right Livelihood. For example, in Satipatthana (MN 118), Samma Sati remembers to maintain Right View to keep the mind free from covetousness, distress & other forms of craving & attachment towards all objects (body, feelings, mental states & dhamma) of Satipatthana experience . Thus, Samma Sati conforms.

(ii) Yoniso Manasikara seems to be giving deliberate intentional wise considerate & thorough attention to a subject or object in order to discover, discern or confirm the nature of those subjects or objects. In Latin, Yoniso Manasikara might be 'a posteriori' (lit. "from the latter").

Thus Samma Sati 'conforms' to a formula or principle where as Yoniso Manasikara 'examines & confirms' a formula or principle.

Novel answer. :mrgreen:
A priori knowledge or justification is independent of experience, as with mathematics (3 + 2 = 5), tautologies ("All bachelors are unmarried"), and deduction from pure reason (e.g., ontological proofs).

A posteriori knowledge or justification depends on experience or empirical evidence, as with most aspects of science and personal knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_priori_and_a_posteriori
;)

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:02 pm

No. Of course not. Where did I ever imply this? Since Nibbana is called The Deathless, obviously the attainment of Nibbana knows no death (marana).
You said that Buddha actually didn't die in Kusinara, while at the same time you agreed that "his aggregates" ended. Then, obviously, you either imply that "some part of Buddha" remained after this event, or you just trying to stand in this camp:

when he is questioned about this or that point, he resorts to evasive statements and to endless equivocation: ‘If you ask me whether there is a world beyond—if I thought there is another world, I would declare that there is. But I do not take it thus, nor do I take it in that way, nor do I take it in some other way. I do not say that it is not, nor do I say that is neither this nor that.’

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:41 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:02 pm
You said that Buddha actually didn't die in Kusinara, while at the same time you agreed that "his aggregates" ended.
Buddha's do not die. This is taught throughout the suttas. :roll:
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn38
And what may be said to be subject to death? Wife and children are subject to death, men and women slaves, goats and sheep, fowl and pigs, elephants, cattle, horses, and mares are subject to death. These acquisitions are subject to death; and one who is tied to these things, infatuated with them, and utterly committed to them, being himself subject to death, seeks what is also subject to death.

being myself subject to death, having understood the danger in what is subject to death, seeking the deathless supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna, I attained the deathless supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna

MN 26

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:06 am

In the following video Ven Punnaji said that Youniso Manasikara means thinking in terms of the origin. (Woomb)

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Dmytro » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:51 am
Still, I probably might still have reservations about the translation "attention"; unless I can be convinced otherise. My prior impression was 'manas' refers to 'thinking' rather than 'observing' . For now, I might go for the translation of 'proper or thorough examination', which can incorporate both observing & thinking. :smile:
As Ven. Nyanatiloka points out, the word manasikāra is used in two meanings:

manasikāra 'attention', 'mental advertence', 'reflection'.

1. As a psychological term, attention belongs to the formation-group (sankhāra-kkhandha; s. Tab. II) and is one of the 7 mental factors (cetasika) that are inseparably associated with all states of consciousness (s. cetanā). In M. 9, it is given as one of the factors representative of mind (nāma) It is the mind's first 'confrontation with an object' and 'binds the associated mental factors to the object.' It is, therefore, the prominent factor in two specific classes of consciousness: i.e. 'advertence (āvajjana, q.v.) at the five sense-doors' (Tab. I, 70) and at the mind-door (Tab. I, 71). These two states of consciousness, breaking through the subconscious life-continuum (bhavanga), form the first stage in the perceptual process (citta-vīthi; s. viññāna-kicca). See Vis.M. XIV, 152.

2. In a more general sense, the term appears frequently in the Suttas as yoniso-manasikāra, 'wise (or reasoned, methodical) attention' or 'wise reflection'. It is said, in M. 2, to counteract the cankers (āsava, q.v.); it is a condition for the arising of right view (s. M. 43), of Stream-entry (s. sotāpattiyanga), and of the factors of enlightenment (s. S. XLVI, 2.49,51). - 'Unwise attention' (ayoniso-manasikāra) leads to the arising of the cankers (s. M. 2) and of the five hindrances (s. S. XLVI, 2.51).

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_ ... ikaara.htm

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Dmytro » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:46 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:28 pm
Nicolas wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:18 pm
Paṭhamaabhabbaṭṭhāna Sutta (AN 6.92) wrote: abhabbo diṭṭhisampanno puggalo aṭṭhamaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetuṃ.
One accomplished in view is incapable of undergoing an eighth existence [bhava]. (Bodhi)
The issue here is "bhava" does not appear to mean "reincarnation"; also "nibbattetuṃ". In the suttas, "bhava" appears to be an "asava" or "defilement".
Bhava does mean "lifetime" or "life" here. For detailed explanation, see:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=27543

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