What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Zom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:51 pm

I meant that passage there about what is "ayoniso" in this case .)

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:13 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:51 pm
I meant that passage there about what is "ayoniso" in this case .)
I haven't really thought much about yoniso manasikara but, based on ayoniso, maybe "attention" is an accurate translation.
By attending to things unfit for attention and by not attending to things fit for attention, both unarisen taints arise in him and arisen taints increase. This is how he attends unwisely: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?’ When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him. The view ‘self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘no self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with self’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive not-self with self’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with not-self’ arises in him as true and established; or else he has some such view as this: ‘It is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity.’ This speculative view, bhikkhus, is called the thicket of views, the wilderness of views, the contortion of views, the vacillation of views, the fetter of views. Fettered by the fetter of views, the untaught ordinary person is not freed from birth, ageing, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair; he is not freed from suffering, I say.

MN 2
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by paul » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:45 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:47 pm
there is no mention about Ayoniso Manasikara as an unwholesome mental factor.
Any reason for this?
Yoniso manasikara is appropriate attention, therefore it is always wholesome. Manasikara is plain attention and is a primary factor in all consciousness. Right mindfulness directs the information supplied by manasikara (actually from phassa, contact) and converts attention to yoniso manasikara. So when appropriate attention is mentioned in the suttas, it implies the action of right mindfulness.
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Zom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:51 pm

there is no mention about Ayoniso Manasikara as an unwholesome mental factor.
In Abhidhamma? It misses a lot of things, not only this. Well, Abhidhamma is just a big list of mental factors, that's it.
Does the following from MN 2 mean pondering reincarnation videos is ayoniso?
No. What MN 2 speaks about, is that Ayoniso Manasikara is such attention, which is based upon all kinds of self-views and leads one into the Thicket of Views. That's why I find Ven. Bodhi translation "wise / unwise" - the best one.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:10 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:51 pm
No. What MN 2 speaks about, is that Ayoniso Manasikara is such attention, which is based upon all kinds of self-views and leads one into the Thicket of Views. That's why I find Ven. Bodhi translation "wise / unwise" - the best one.
So there is a reincarnation without self-view? If so, what incentive is there to do good kamma if "myself" is not reincarnated?

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:12 am

paul wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:45 pm
Yoniso manasikara is appropriate attention, therefore it is always wholesome.
Sounds reasonable.
paul wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:45 pm
Manasikara is plain attention and is a primary factor in all consciousness.
This idea needs substantiation. While I have not studied the matter at length, my impression of life is consciousness can occur without attention. Maybe manasikara needs to be defined. My impression is manasikara is a factor of intention rather than consciousness. The mind pays attention to something influenced by intention.
Feeling, perception, intention, contact & attention: This is called nama.

SN 12.2
:alien:
paul wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:45 pm
So when appropriate attention is mentioned in the suttas, it implies the action of right mindfulness.
AN 10.61 says yoniso manasikara occurs before right mindfulness rather than after; that is, right mindfulness is a product of yoniso manasikara.
Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention (yoniso manasikārā). Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.

AN 10.61
:alien:

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:51 am

paul wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:45 pm
SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:47 pm
there is no mention about Ayoniso Manasikara as an unwholesome mental factor.
Any reason for this?
Yoniso manasikara is appropriate attention, therefore it is always wholesome. Manasikara is plain attention and is a primary factor in all consciousness. Right mindfulness directs the information supplied by manasikara (actually from phassa, contact) and converts attention to yoniso manasikara. So when appropriate attention is mentioned in the suttas, it implies the action of right mindfulness.
So I would say Yoniso Manasikara means wholesome mental factors and the Ayoniso Manasikara is Unwholesome mental factors.
Hence Samma Sati is Yoniso Manaskikara.
ie: Samma Sati is only one of the many wholesome factors.
Am I right?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by paul » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:54 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:12 am
AN 10.61 says yoniso manasikara occurs before right mindfulness rather than after; that is, right mindfulness is a product of yoniso manasikara.

The dhamma is a cyclic process, not a linear one, and the influences go both ways:
“...appropriate attention- as a purposeful process guided by the agenda of right view- serves as an aspect of right mindfulness. At the same time, right mindfulness plays a role in training attention to be appropriate”—-“Right Mindfulness”, Thanissaro.
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:15 am

paul wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:54 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:12 am
AN 10.61 says yoniso manasikara occurs before right mindfulness rather than after; that is, right mindfulness is a product of yoniso manasikara.

The dhamma is a cyclic process, not a linear one and I think right mindfulness must inform manasikara to turn it into yoniso manasikara, nothing else has the dynamic to do it. As often happens in this cyclic process, I suspect yoniso manasikara then goes on to influence right mindfulness.
“At the same time, right mindfulness plays a role in training attention to be appropriate”—-“Right Mindfulness”, Thanissaro.

Agree basically whole DO and reverse DO is a cyclic process.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Zom » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:55 pm

So there is a reincarnation without self-view?
Yes. A stream-winnder does not have self-view, but he reborns for 7 lives maximum.
If so, what incentive is there to do good kamma if "myself" is not reincarnated?
There is no such thing as self, but there is such thing as impermanent and ever-changing heap of constructions - in a sense, it is reincarnated .)

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:45 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:55 pm
Yes. A stream-winnder does not have self-view, but he reborns for 7 lives maximum.
I am unable to find the word "lives" in the Pali in SN 13.1. Can you help me here?
Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:55 pm
There is no such thing as self, but there is such thing as impermanent and ever-changing heap of constructions - in a sense, it is reincarnated
But the sutta says in relation to kamma:
I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
While arahants appear to have ended kamma by completing the noble path of not-self (AN 6.63), surely the belief in the efficacy of kamma for a good rebirth depends on having self-view, as seems to be explained in MN 117:
And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions (upadhi)? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings (satta); there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the other after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
As I originally suggested, if I did not believe "I" will be reincarnated, I cannot imagine any reasons or incentive for doing good kamma. What would I fear if it was not "me" that was reincarnated?
Surveying the world with the eye of a Buddha, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and with much dust in their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach, and some who dwelt seeing fear and blame in the other world.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn26
With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'If there is the other world, then this venerable person — on the breakup of the body, after death — will reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world. Even if we didn't speak of the other world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable contemplatives & brahmans, this venerable person is still praised in the here-&-now by the observant as a person of good habits & right view: one who holds to a doctrine of existence.' If there really is a other world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice, in that he is praised by the observant here-&-now; and in that — with the breakup of the body, after death — he will reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when well grasped & adopted by him, covers both sides, and leaves behind the possibility of the unskillful.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said: "There is the case, student, where a woman or man is a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the break-up of the body, after death — instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell — he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short life: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I heard and learned this from the Blessed One’s own lips: ‘When the Bodhisatta passed away from the Tusita heaven and descended into his mother’s womb....

I heard and learned this from the Blessed One’s own lips: ‘When the Bodhisatta had descended into his mother’s womb, four young deities came to guard him at the four quarters so that no humans or non-humans or anyone at all could harm the Bodhisatta or his mother.’ This too I remember as a wonderful and marvelous quality of the Blessed One.

I heard and learned this from the Blessed One’s own lips: ‘As soon as the Bodhisatta was born, he stood firmly with his feet on the ground; then he took seven steps facing north, and with a white parasol held over him, he surveyed each quarter and uttered the words of the Leader of the Herd: “I am the highest in the world; I am the best in the world; I am the foremost in the world. This is my last birth; now there is no renewal of being for me.”’ This too I remember as a wonderful and marvelous quality of the Blessed One.

http://www.yellowrobe.com/component/con ... llous.html

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:10 pm

:alien:
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Zom » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:26 pm

I am unable to find the word "lives" in the Pali in SN 13.1. Can you help me here?
I don't know pali well, so I won't help your here. But I think you can trust english translations .)
As I originally suggested, if I did not believe "I" will be reincarnated, I cannot imagine any reasons or incentive for doing good kamma. What would I fear if it was not "me" that was reincarnated?
And why don't you fear that now you fall asleep and on the next day not you but someone else will awake? -) Same with rebirth.

Anyway, it seems you confuse two types of truth - conventional and absolute. From conventional point of view, "Self" exists. From absolute, ultimate, it does not. Conventional self is just a living being. But inside that living being there is no ultimate self. Just ever-changing heap of constructions.

“Why now do you assume ‘a being’?
Mara, is that your speculative view?
This is a heap of sheer formations:
Here no being is found.

“Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word ‘chariot’ is used,
So, when the aggregates exist,
There is the convention ‘a being.’

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:36 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:26 pm
And why don't you fear that now you fall asleep and on the next day not you but someone else will awake? -) Same with rebirth.
It was you who suggested I post MN 2, which states ideas of "I will be in the future"; "I was in the past" are inappropriate attention and it was you that posted there is no self. But now you are posting some incomprehensible ideas about you fall asleep and on the next day not you but someone else will awake? -) Same with rebirth.. :shrug:

If I went to work today knowing some one else would get paid for my work tomorrow, I would not bother going to work. I imagine the same with reincarnation. The same self must believe they will be reincarnated otherwise the will not do the work for a good reincarnation.
Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:26 pm
I don't know pali well, so I won't help your here. But I think you can trust english translations .
Then maybe you should think twice before posting things you don't know well. In my experience, I cannot trust translations.
Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:26 pm
. Conventional self is just a living being. But inside that living being there is no ultimate self. Just ever-changing heap of constructions.

“Why now do you assume ‘a being’?
Mara, is that your speculative view?
This is a heap of sheer formations:
Here no being is found.

“Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word ‘chariot’ is used,
So, when the aggregates exist,
There is the convention ‘a being.’
The idea of "living being" does not appear to exist above. The above seems to say "a being" is merely a wrong view, a word, a convention or an idea (thought construct). Maybe SN 23.2 can help avoid having the same wrong view as Mara.
Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'

SN 23.3
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Zom » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:49 pm

It was you who suggested I post MN 2, which states ideas of "I will be in the future"; "I was in the past" are inappropriate attention
Yes, these are Ayoniso Manasikara, because these are questions about "self" status (in ultimate, not conventional sense). This is why they are listed as "Ayoniso" there - and not because someone thinks about his previous or future lives ,)
If I went to work today knowing some one else would get paid for my work tomorrow, I would not bother going to work. I imagine the same with reincarnation.
Again, why don't you think that tomorrow someone another will wake up and not you? Same with reincarnation. This will be you, not someone else.
Then maybe you should think twice before posting things you don't know well. In my experience, I cannot trust translations.
Do you mean that Ven. Bodhi, for example, is a bad and unskilful translator? 8-) Anyway, texts do speak about 7 lives for a stream-winner, who has right views, not wrong ones.
The idea of "living being" does not appear to exist above. The above seems to say "a being" is merely a wrong view
So, when the aggregates exist,
There is the convention ‘a being.’

That means you can use both words here: "A being" or "A heap of aggregates".

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