What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Zom »

Do the suttas say arahants are subject to death?
Don't you know that Buddha died? And such arahants as Moggallana and Sariputta too, eh, unforunately -)
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Zom wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:37 pmDon't you know that Buddha died? -)
:roll: Buddhas do not die (MN 140; MN 38; SN 22.85; Dhp 21).

Time to go for me. Time for you to study more rather than exchange "folk Buddhism" with Pariyatti students. :reading:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Nicolas »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:28 pm
Nicolas wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:18 pm The non-arahant stream-winner still has the conceit "I am".
It is probably proper to say a stream-winner has not uprooted the conceit "I am". Obviously, the stream-winner abides often without the conceit of "I am".
Yes, my apologies, yours is the correct phrasing, and the one I intended: the stream-winner has not uprooted the conceit "I am".

I can't find the full AN 6.92 sutta translated by Ven. Bodhi online, but here's Sister Uppalavanna's:
Sīti Vagga (AN 6.85-95) wrote: Bhikkhus, these six are impossibilities. What six?
It is not possible that one come to right view should abide unruly not revering the Teacher, the Teaching, the Community of bhikkhus and the training. It is not possible that one come to right view should anticipate the future. It is not possible that one come to right view should be born the eighth time.
Bhikkhus, these six are impossibilities.
The following sutta might also be of use:
Khemaka Sutta (SN 22.89) wrote: The Venerable Khemaka replied: “These five aggregates subject to clinging have been spoken of by the Blessed One; that is, the form aggregate subject to clinging … the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. I do not regard anything among these five aggregates subject to clinging as self or as belonging to self, yet I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed. Friends, the notion ‘I am’ has not yet vanished in me in relation to these five aggregates subject to clinging, but I do not regard anything among them as ‘This I am.’”

[...]

Friend Khemaka, when you speak of this “I am”—what is it that you speak of as “I am”? Do you speak of form as “I am,” or do you speak of “I am” apart from form? Do you speak of feeling … of perception … of volitional formations … of consciousness as “I am,” or do you speak of “I am” apart from consciousness? When you speak of this “I am,” friend Khemaka, what is it that you speak of as “I am”?’”

“Friends, I do not speak of form as ‘I am,’ nor do I speak of ‘I am’ apart from form. I do not speak of feeling as ‘I am’ … nor of perception as ‘I am’ … nor of volitional formations as ‘I am’ … nor of consciousness as ‘I am,’ nor do I speak of ‘I am’ apart from consciousness. Friends, although the notion ‘I am’ has not yet vanished in me in relation to these five aggregates subject to clinging, still I do not regard anything among them as ‘This I am.’

“Suppose, friends, there is the scent of a blue, red, or white lotus. Would one be speaking rightly if one would say, ‘The scent belongs to the petals,’ or ‘The scent belongs to the stalk,’ or ‘The scent belongs to the pistils’?”

“No, friend.”

“And how, friends, should one answer if one is to answer rightly?”

“Answering rightly, friend, one should answer: ‘The scent belongs to the flower.’”

“So too, friends, I do not speak of form as ‘I am,’ nor do I speak of ‘I am’ apart from form. I do not speak of feeling as ‘I am’ … nor of perception as ‘I am’ … nor of volitional formations as ‘I am’ … nor of consciousness as ‘I am,’ nor do I speak of ‘I am’ apart from consciousness. Friends, although the notion ‘I am’ has not yet vanished in me in relation to these five aggregates subject to clinging, still I do not regard anything among them as ‘This I am.’

“Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, still, in relation to the five aggregates subject to clinging, there lingers in him a residual conceit ‘I am,’ a desire ‘I am,’ an underlying tendency ‘I am’ that has not yet been uprooted. Sometime later he dwells contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging: ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling … such is perception … such are volitional formations … such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away.’ As he dwells thus contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging, the residual conceit ‘I am,’ the desire ‘I am,’ the underlying tendency ‘I am’ that had not yet been uprooted—this comes to be uprooted.

“Suppose, friends, a cloth has become soiled and stained, and its owners give it to a laundryman. The laundryman would scour it evenly with cleaning salt, lye, or cowdung, and rinse it in clean water. Even though that cloth would become pure and clean, it would still retain a residual smell of cleaning salt, lye, or cowdung that had not yet vanished. The laundryman would then give it back to the owners. The owners would put it in a sweet-scented casket, and the residual smell of cleaning salt, lye, or cowdung that had not yet vanished would vanish.

“So too, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, still, in relation to the five aggregates subject to clinging, there lingers in him a residual conceit ‘I am,’ a desire ‘I am,’ an underlying tendency ‘I am’ that has not yet been uprooted…. As he dwells thus contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging, the residual conceit ‘I am,’ the desire ‘I am,’ the underlying tendency ‘I am’ that had not yet been uprooted—this comes to be uprooted.”
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Nicolas wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:40 pm I can't find the full AN 6.92 sutta translated by Ven. Bodhi online, but here's Sister Uppalavanna's:
Sīti Vagga (AN 6.85-95) wrote: Bhikkhus, these six are impossibilities. What six?
It is not possible that one come to right view should abide unruly not revering the Teacher, the Teaching, the Community of bhikkhus and the training. It is not possible that one come to right view should anticipate the future. It is not possible that one come to right view should be born the eighth time.
Bhikkhus, these six are impossibilities.
Its OK. As I previously belatedly posted, in the suttas, "bhava" appears to be an "asava" or "defilement". "Bhava" appears to not mean to be "born".
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Buddhas do not die
And what happened in Kusinara then? 8-)
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Zom wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:46 pmAnd what happened in Kusinara then? 8-)
I think "folk Buddhist" ideas should not be a source of pride 8-). :roll: What happened at Kusinara is described in SN 22.85, namely, the impermanent & unsatisfactory five aggregates ceased and gone to its end.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html :reading:

Time to go.
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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What happened at Kusinara is described in SN 22.85, namely, the impermanent & unsatisfactory five aggregates ceased and gone to its end.
Good. Then I guess now you can get what is "Buddha" according to conventional truth .) And this very Buddha passed away in Kusinara. And this very stream-winner will reborn 7 lives at most.
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Zom wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pmAnd this very Buddha passed away in Kusinara.
This very Buddha may have passed away (parinibbāyi) at Kusinara but it appears this very Buddha could not have "died" ("marana") because the suttas appear to strongly suggest that Buddhas are not subject to "marana". Therefore, I think it is utterly pointless & even misguided for you to insist as you are doing that your views are right view. Instead, what you write is simply your own subjective opinion or interpretation.
Zom wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pmAnd this very stream-winner will reborn 7 lives at most.
Sorry. But no evidence for this common idea has been provided by you because the words "lives" or "reborn" do not appear to exist in the Pali in SN 13.1. In the 1st sermon (SN 56.11), the stream-enterer came to the realisation that: "all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation" (rather than "all that is subject to arising is subject to re-arising").
Evaṃ me sutaṃ—​ ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anātha­piṇḍi­kassa ārāme. Atha kho bhagavā parittaṃ nakhasikhāyaṃ paṃsuṃ āropetvā bhikkhū āmantesi: “taṃ kiṃ maññatha, bhikkhave, katamaṃ nu kho bahutaraṃ, yo vāyaṃ mayā paritto nakhasikhāyaṃ paṃsu āropito, ayaṃ vā mahāpathavī”ti?

Etadeva, bhante, bahutaraṃ, yadidaṃ mahāpathavī. Appamattako bhagavatā paritto nakhasikhāyaṃ paṃsu āropito. Neva satimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na sahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na satasahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti mahāpathaviṃ upanidhāya bhagavatā paritto nakhasikhāyaṃ paṃsu āropito”ti. “Evameva kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa diṭṭhi­sam­pannassa puggalassa abhisametāvino etadeva bahutaraṃ dukkhaṃ yadidaṃ parikkhīṇaṃ pariyādiṇṇaṃ; appamattakaṃ avasiṭṭhaṃ. Neva satimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na sahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na satasahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti (approaches; obtains) purimaṃ (former) duk­khak­khan­dhaṃ parikkhīṇaṃ (wasted) pariyādiṇṇaṃ (exhausted) upanidhāya (comparison) yadidaṃ (namely) sattak­khat­tuṃ­paramatā. Evaṃ mahatthiyo kho, bhikkhave, dhammā­bhisa­mayo; evaṃ mahatthiyo dhamma­cak­khu­paṭi­lābho”ti.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most (­paramatā) seven times (sattakkhattuṃ) remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering (duk­khak­khan­dhaṃ). That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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This very Buddha may have passed away (parinibbāyi) at Kusinara but it appears this very Buddha could not have "died" ("marana") because the suttas appear to strongly suggest that Buddhas are not subject to "marana". Therefore, I think it is utterly pointless & even misguided for you to insist as you are doing that your views are right view. Instead, what you write is simply your own subjective opinion or interpretation.
So you say that there is a Self of Buddha which survived his death. Correct? -)
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Zom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:44 amSo you say that there is a Self of Buddha which survived his death. Correct?
No. Of course not. Where did I ever imply this? Since Nibbana is called The Deathless, obviously the attainment of Nibbana knows no death (marana). It is not myself engaged in the ayoniso manasikaro warned against in MN 2 by posting a stream-enterer is reborn in the future. Surely, any rebirth involves the view of self. Where did the Buddha ever teach mere selfless aggregates are reborn?
This is how he attends unwisely: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?’
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Zom wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pm And this very stream-winner will reborn 7 lives at most.
A literal translation was post on DW. Notice the words added in brackets, which are not included in the Pali.
Even so, bhikkhus, for a noble disciple who has [right] view, for a person possessing realization, this is the greater suffering: that which is completely finished and exhausted. Insignificant is what is left over set beside the former heap of suffering that is completely finished and exhausted, it does not amount to a hundredth part, a thousandth part, a hundred thousandth part — [being born again merely] seven times at the most

viewtopic.php?t=12803
In fact, if English is one's mother tongue, the last past of the sutta does not make literal sense; at least to me.
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Zom wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pm And this very stream-winner will reborn 7 lives at most.
Do the above words declare the aggregates conventionally named 'Zom' is a stream-winner?

:popcorn:
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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Nicolas wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:18 pm
Paṭhamaabhabbaṭṭhāna Sutta (AN 6.92) wrote: abhabbo (impossible) diṭṭhisampanno (accomplished in view) puggalo (person) aṭṭhamaṃ (eighth) bhavaṃ (existence; becoming) nibbattetuṃ (production).
One accomplished in view is incapable of undergoing an eighth existence [bhava]. (Bodhi)
This is an interesting phrase. Searching for nibbattetuṃ, it an only be found in this sutta. Similar words seem to show these words don't necessarily mean "reincarnation" or "post-mortem rebirth".
Bhikkhus, there are these three taints. What three? The taint of sensuality, the taint of existence (bhava), the taint of ignorance. These are the three taints. The four establishments of mindfulness are to be developed for the full understanding of these three taints

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn47.50
The craving that makes for further becoming (bhava) — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

MN 44
nibbattetuṃ
inf. of nibbatteti
(see nibbatteti)
nibbatteti
ni + vat + e
produces; brings forth.

nibbatteti
to produce, bring forth; practise, perform; to bring to light, find something lost
Aṭṭhānametaṃ, bhikkhave, anavakāso yaṃ kāya­ducca­ritassa iṭṭho kanto manāpo vipāko nibbatteyya. Netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. Ṭhānañca kho etaṃ, bhikkhave, vijjati yaṃ kāya­ducca­ritassa aniṭṭho akanto amanāpo vipāko nibbatteyya. Ṭhānametaṃ vijjatī”ti

284. Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a person misconducting bodily should achieve pleasant agreeable results on account of it. It is possible that a person misconducting bodily should achieve unpleasant disagreeable results on account of it.

AN 1.284
evameva kho, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano rūpaññeva abhi­nib­bat­tento abhinibbatteti, vedanaññeva … pe … saññaññeva … saṅkhāreyeva … viññāṇaññeva abhi­nib­bat­tento abhinibbatteti

Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces.
This sutta is possibly insightful:
Yaṃ, bhikkhave, lobhapakataṃ kammaṃ lobhajaṃ lobhanidānaṃ lobhasamudayaṃ, yatthassa attabhāvo nibbattati tattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati. Yattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati tattha tassa kammassa vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti, diṭṭhe vā dhamme upapajja vā apare vā pariyāye.

Any action performed with greed — born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up [is produced], there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in the here & now that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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:focus:
SarathW wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:51 amHence Samma Sati is Yoniso Manaskikara.
While I have not yet given this topic the appropriate attention, below is more quotes which include both 'mindfulness' & 'manasikara':
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cepi ākaṅkheyya: ‘neva me kāyo kilameyya na cakkhūni, anupādāya ca me āsavehi cittaṃ vimucceyyā’ti, ayameva ānā­pā­nassa­ti­samā­dhi sādhukaṃ manasi kātabbo.

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cepi ākaṅkheyya: ‘ye me gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyeyyun’ti, ayameva ānā­pā­nassa­ti­samā­dhi sādhukaṃ manasi kātabbo.

So if a monk should wish: 'May neither my body be fatigued nor my eyes, and may my mind, through lack of clinging, be released from fermentations,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.

If a monk should wish: 'May my memories & resolves related to the household life be abandoned,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.
There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention — he ferreted them out one after another.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Ko ca, bhikkhave, āhāro anuppannassa vā sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gassa uppādāya, uppannassa vā sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gassa bhāvanāya pāripūriyā? Atthi, bhikkhave, sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṭ­ṭhānīyā dhammā. Tattha yoniso­ma­nasikā­ra­bahu­līkāro— ayamāhāro anuppannassa vā sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gassa uppādāya, uppannassa vā sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gassa bhāvanāya pāripūriyā.

And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness? There are, bhikkhus, things that are the basis for the enlightenment factor of mindfulness: frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn46.51
Someone would say to him: ‘Good man, you must carry around this bowl of oil filled to the brim between the crowd and the most beautiful girl of the land. A man with a drawn sword will be following right behind you, and wherever you spill even a little of it, right there he will fell your head.’

Taṃ kiṃ maññatha, bhikkhave, api nu so puriso amuṃ telapattaṃ amanasikaritvā bahiddhā pamādaṃ āhareyyā”ti?

“No hetaṃ, bhante”.

What do you think, bhikkhus, would that man stop attending to that bowl of oil and out of negligence turn his attention outwards?”

“No, venerable sir.”

I have made up this simile, bhikkhus, in order to convey a meaning. This here is the meaning: ‘The bowl of oil filled to the brim’: this is a designation for mindfulness directed to the body. Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: ‘We will develop and cultivate mindfulness directed to the body, make it our vehicle, make it our basis, stabilize it, exercise ourselves in it, and fully perfect it.’ Thus, bhikkhus, should you train yourselves.”

https://suttacentral.net/pi/sn47.20
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 amWhat is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?
OK, after pondering, Piotr's answer was certainly succinct: "Sati is maintenance, manasikara is a direction".

However, reading the quotes from the suttas & meditating upon them, I think:

(i) Samma Sati is to recollect, bring to & keep in mind a pre-existing knowledge. In Latin, Samma Sati might be 'a priori' (lit. "from the earlier"). For example, in practise (MN 117), Samma Sati remembers to strictly uphold the pre-determined Right View, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action & Right Livelihood. For example, in Satipatthana (MN 118), Samma Sati remembers to maintain Right View to keep the mind free from covetousness, distress & other forms of craving & attachment towards all objects (body, feelings, mental states & dhamma) of Satipatthana experience . Thus, Samma Sati conforms.

(ii) Yoniso Manasikara seems to be giving deliberate intentional wise considerate & thorough attention to a subject or object in order to discover, discern or confirm the nature of those subjects or objects. In Latin, Yoniso Manasikara might be 'a posteriori' (lit. "from the latter").

Thus Samma Sati 'conforms' to a formula or principle where as Yoniso Manasikara 'examines & confirms' a formula or principle.

Novel answer. :mrgreen:
A priori knowledge or justification is independent of experience, as with mathematics (3 + 2 = 5), tautologies ("All bachelors are unmarried"), and deduction from pure reason (e.g., ontological proofs).

A posteriori knowledge or justification depends on experience or empirical evidence, as with most aspects of science and personal knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_priori_and_a_posteriori
;)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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