A sotapanna is reborn because they have not eliminated all craving, have not eradicated the fetters, haven't uprooted the conceit "I am" -- the Khemaka Sutta (SN 22.89) which I previously quoted clarifies that.DooDoot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:05 am In the 1st ever sutta, the sotapanna realised all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation. If a sotapanna changed this view of 'cessation' to a view of seven more lifetimes, this would become very confusing. The sotapanna would start to have thoughts of "I", which are contrary to the yoniso manasikara in MN 2. For exampel, in suttas like MN 143, a sotapanna is literally reincarnated in a brahma world & returns to earth to pay respects to Sariputta. Yet this sotapanna appears to be still clutching at views about self. In addition, the sotapanna is said to be the very same person [...]
At least to me, which is why I originally questioned Zom, all of this is very confusing. How can the mind attain stream-entry with all of these views of self reincarnated over 7 lifetimes, similar to the views of self & personhood in MN 143?
There are other suttas that don't mention "eighth bhava", but "at-most-seven-times" (sattakkhattuparamatā).
SN 13.1-10
SN 48.24
SN 56.49-60
AN 3.87-88
AN 9.12
AN 10.63-64
Iti 24
... and probably others as well.
Let's look at Iti 24:
Compare with suttas from SN 15:Sa sattakkhattuṃ paramaṃ,
sandhāvitvāna puggalo;
[the person] Having merely run on
Seven times at the most,
... which shows that the sandhāvati (& declensions) refers to transmigration from life to life.Pubbā koṭi na paññāyati avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ taṇhāsaṃyojanānaṃ sandhāvataṃ saṃsarataṃ.
A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.
But even more clear are AN 3.87 & AN 3.88:
Which, if that is not enough, is placed in context with others:AN 3.87 wrote:So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sattakkhattuparamo hoti. Sattakkhattuparamaṃ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.
With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a seven-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering.
And similarly with AN 3.88:AM 3.87 wrote:So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā kolaṃkolo hoti, dve vā tīṇi vā kulāni sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti. So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā ekabījī hoti, ekaṃyeva mānusakaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti. So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.
With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a family-to-family attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among good families two or three times, makes an end of suffering. With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a one-seed attainer who, after being reborn once more in human existence, makes an end to suffering. With the utter destruction of three fetters and with the diminishing of greed, hatred, and delusion, he is a once-returner who, after coming back to this world only one more time, makes an end to suffering.
AN 3.88 wrote:Taṃ vā pana anabhisambhavaṃ appaṭivijjhaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā, rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti. Taṃ vā pana anabhisambhavaṃ appaṭivijjhaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā ekabījī hoti, ekaṃyeva mānusakaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti. Taṃ vā pana anabhisambhavaṃ appaṭivijjhaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā kolaṅkolo hoti, dve vā tīṇi vā kulāni sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti. Taṃ vā pana anabhisambhavaṃ appaṭivijjhaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sattakkhattuparamo hoti, sattakkhattuparamaṃ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.
If he does not attain and penetrate this, with the utter destruction of three fetters and with the diminishing of greed, hatred, and delusion, he is a once-returner who, after coming back to this world only one more time, makes an end of suffering. If he does not attain and penetrate this, with the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a one-seed attainer who, after being reborn once more in human existence, makes an end of suffering. If he does not attain and penetrate this, with the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a family-to-family attainer who, after roaming and wandering .on among good families two or three times, makes an end of suffering. If he does not attain and penetrate this, with the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a seven-times-at-most. attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering.
A sotapanna doesn't need to have the view that they will be reborn at most seven times, it just happens. That knowledge doesn't have to be there for one to be a sotapanna.
The idea that "seven-at-most" refers to the seven remaining fetters is incorrect, since "seven-at-most" implies the possibility of less than seven.
Right, either in the here & now that has arisen or further along in the sequence.DooDoot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:05 am The following sutta is the closest i could find; since it contains both the words "bhava" and "nibbatte". It appears to be about producing (nibbattati) views of self-existence (attabhāvo) in the here & now (diṭṭhe vā dhamme).Yaṃ, bhikkhave, lobhapakataṃ kammaṃ lobhajaṃ lobhanidānaṃ lobhasamudayaṃ, yatthassa attabhāvo nibbattati tattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati. Yattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati tattha tassa kammassa vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti, diṭṭhe vā dhamme upapajja vā apare vā pariyāye.
Any action performed with greed — born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up [is produced], there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in the here & now that has arisen or further along in the sequence.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
P.S. Since we are veering off-topic, perhaps it is best to create another thread about the sotapanna being reborn at most seven times?
(edit: I reported some posts here asking to move the off-topic posts to a new topic.)