What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

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SarathW
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What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 am

What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?
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paul
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by paul » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:17 am

Thank you for the question. Thanissaro's view is that yoniso manasikara encompasses the three components of mindfulness: they are sati ( the remembering of dhamma tactics from the past), alertness to the present, and ardency, but is only applied through the fourth establishing of mindfulness, because it is concerned with appropriate attention, and therefore concerned with distinguishing between the seven factors of enlightenment and the three unwholesome roots, the five hindrances and the other factors under the fourth foundation.
Last edited by paul on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:23 am

Thanissaro's view is that yoniso manasikara encompasses the three components of mindfulnes
What are those three?
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:06 am

paul wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:17 am
..is only applied through the fourth establishing of mindfulness, because it is concerned with appropriate attention, and therefore concerned with distinguishing between the seven factors of enlightenment and the three unwholesome roots, the five hindrances and the other factors under the fourth foundation.
How is the first establishing of mindfulness practised without distinguishing the three unwholesome roots, the five hindrances and the other factors? Also, SN 47.42 only uses word 'manasikara' however it is questionable SN 47.42 is about the practise of the satipatthana (given it appears to merely be about origination).

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:20 am

Hi Sarath,

Regarding yonisomanasikara, there is a nice little article by Piya Tan that might interest you.

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 5-piya.pdf

As the "yoni" part means "womb" or "origin", it is possible to read this as "deep attention" or "thorough attention" (I have heard Ajahn Sucitto call it "fathoming attention") but also as attention paid to the origin or antecedents of things; for example how they are dependently arisen. In most of the contexts I have seen it used, it could quite plausibly work like that.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by paul » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:45 am

Thanissaro: "...it seems best to to view the last three frames of reference as guides to fruitful ways of directing ardency when you focus on any of the exercises in the first."
Ardency indicates the active mode of mindfulness and so is a manifestation of appropriate attention.

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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:49 am

paul wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:45 am
Thanissaro: "...it seems best to to view the last three frames of reference as guides to fruitful ways of directing ardency when you focus on any of the exercises in the first." Ardency indicates the active mode of mindfulness and so is a manifestation of appropriate attention.
Sounds equally incomprehensible. Can this be translated into Plain English? Thanks

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LG2V
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by LG2V » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:56 am

paul wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:17 am
Thank you for the question. Thanissaro's view is that yoniso manasikara encompasses the three components of mindfulness: they are sati ( the remembering of dhamma tactics from the past), alertness to the present, and ardency, but is only applied through the fourth establishing of mindfulness, because it is concerned with appropriate attention, and therefore concerned with distinguishing between the seven factors of enlightenment and the three unwholesome roots, the five hindrances and the other factors under the fourth foundation.


Would it be fair to say that it encompasses the first three bojjhanga (Sati, Dhamma Vicaya, Viriya)?
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:47 pm

According to Abhidhamma Manasikara is a universal mental faculty. Even Buddha and Arahants possess the same.
Samma Sati is a wholesome mental faculty.
However, there is no mention about Ayoniso Manasikara as an unwholesome mental factor.
Any reason for this?
http://103.242.110.22/theravadins/Engli ... actice.pdf
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by paul » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:36 pm

The character and function of particularly the first and fourth foundations:

1) The first frame of reference forms the foundation for the other three. In other words, you can practice focusing on feelings, mind states, or mental qualities while being mindful and alert to the body in and of itself.
2) The fourth frame of reference is useful primarily for keeping unskillful mental states at bay. In other words, it frames attention in a way that’s helpful for subduing greed and distress with reference to the world outside the focus of your concentration, and ultimately to the world of becoming induced by the concentration itself.
3) The practice of establishing mindfulness on any of the four frames of reference can bring the seven factors for awakening to the culmination of their development; and, through that culmination, lead to clear knowing and release.---"Right Mindfulness", Thanissaro Bikkhu

Vism. sets the four foundations each in respective opposition to one of the four distortions (vipallasa), “it accomplishes the function of abandoning perception of beauty, pleasure, permanence and self.” (XXII, 34)

“the commentaries recommend each of the four satipatthãnas for a specific type of character or inclination. According to them, body and feeling contemplation should be the main field of practice for those who tend towards craving, while meditators given to intellectual speculation should place more emphasis on contemplating mind or dhammas.”—“Satipatthana”, Ven Analayo.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:20 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 am
What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?
Samma Sati is a factor of concentration. It means 'to remember', 'bear in mind' or 'not forget' the Dhamma. Mindfulness is like when your mother tells you to watch the baby; so the baby remains safe. Mindfulness is not watching the baby but remembering to watch the baby, i.e., not allowing your mind to drift elsewhere; such as watching a movie instead of watching the baby.

For example, when angry thoughts arise in the mind, samma sati remembers these angry thoughts are not the path & keeps remembering to apply wisdom (samjanna; panna) to dispel the angry thoughts, as follows.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

MN 117
Yoniso manasikara is factor of wisdom . It simply means to 'actively think with wisdom or reason'. Instead of Thanissaro's tendency towards Zen, the old fashioned translations of 'wise reflection' or 'reasoned consideration' are probably easier to understand than 'appropriate attention' because the word 'attention' often infers non-thinking; like when soldiers are ordered to "pay attention".

For example:

1. If anger arises, if the mind merely recognising anger as 'unwholesome' is enough to dispel the anger, this is probably closer to 'clear comprehension' (sampajanna) than yoniso manasikara; even though both sampajanna & yoniso manasikara are examples of applying wisdom (panna).

2. But if anger arises & the mind needs to think thoroughly to dispel the anger, such as thinking: "If I get angry I will be reborn in hell", this is yoniso manasikara. The following is an example of yoniso manasikara:
As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of sensual desire arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of sensual desire has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.’ When I considered: ‘This leads to my own affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to others’ affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to the affliction of both,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna,’ it subsided in me.

MN 19
In general, in my opinion, most of the active Dhamma discussions on this website are examples of yoniso manasikara, i.e., thinking about the Dhamma.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:26 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 am
What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?
Do you think both Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara are types of 'bare attention', as taught in the West?

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:39 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:26 am
SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 am
What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?
Do you think both Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara are types of 'bare attention', as taught in the West?
Definitely not.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:40 am

In general, in my opinion, most of the active Dhamma discussions on this website are examples of yoniso manasikara, i.e., thinking about the Dhamma
:goodpost:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Samma Sati and Yoniso Manasikara?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:43 am

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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