nibbāna is the cessation of existence

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Dinsdale
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:11 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:09 am
...just a straightforward observation of what SN12.2 actually says. Or perhaps you just don't like what it says? By all means leave out "descent into the womb" in the description of the birth nidana, my point remains valid across the descriptions of birth, aging and death - they are described in a very physical way. Actually I think you are nit-picking here, because you know my observation is basically accurate.
But its not. :|
:shrug: Clearly it is, it seems you just don't want to accept it. From SN12.2:

"And what, bhikkhus, is aging-and-death? The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death. Thus this aging and this death are together called aging-and-death.

“And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent into the womb, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth.

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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DooDoot
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:25 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:11 am
confirmed did not entertain ideas and concluded that it is not what the Buddha taught..
The Buddha did not speak your wild interpretation of AN 10.58 or "the eye exists (bhava)". Sorry if I cannot entertain your speculations. The refuge in the Dhamma is "the dhamma is well-spoken". AN 10.58 is explained by many suttas.

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rightviewftw
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:27 am

you are not being rational here, you are being irrational.
rejecting an idea does not make it wrong. i will not bother explaining that as people who dont get it i dont expect them to understand the Dhamma.

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DooDoot
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:31 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:12 am
:shrug: Clearly it is, it seems you just don't want to accept it. From SN12.2:

"And what, bhikkhus, is aging-and-death? The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death. Thus this aging and this death are together called aging-and-death.

“And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth.
What is "a being" ("satta")? Note: The answer to this question has already been quoted on this thread from the Buddha's lips.
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:12 am
And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence.
Appears to be another faulty translation. The Pali does not say "sense-sphere existence". The Pali is "kāmabhavo" rather than "ayatanabhavo".
kāma
masculine
pleasure; lust; enjoyment; an object of sexual enjoyment.

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DooDoot
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:38 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:27 am
you are not being rational here, you are being irrational.
rejecting an idea does not make it wrong. i will not bother explaining that as people who dont get it i dont expect them to understand the Dhamma.
The Noble Eightfold Path is lead by Right View. Personal ideas may not be Dhamma and may not be Right View, such as the personal views of Mara and Bhikkhu Sati, which were not Dhamma & which were wrong views:
Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Sāvatthī, at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's park. Now on that occasion this pernicious viewpoint (diṭṭhigata) had arisen in the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son: "As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another." A large number of monks heard... Then those monks, desiring to pry the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son away from that pernicious viewpoint, quizzed him back & forth and rebuked him, saying, "Don't say that, friend Sāti. Don't slander the Blessed One, for it is not good to slander the Blessed One. The Blessed One would not say anything like that. In many ways, friend, the Blessed One has said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'"

And to whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Haven't I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness'? But you, through your own poor grasp, not only slander us but also dig yourself up [by the root] and produce much demerit for yourself. That will lead to your long-term harm & suffering.

MN 38
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:41 am

all translations are faulty. if you want to be a good translator you can be that but it wont automatically make you able to wrap your head around what a word is... That sucks for you because Tathagata probably did not even speak Pali as it was written...
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:43 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:41 am
all translations are faulty. if you want to be a good translator you can be that but it wont make you better more able to wrap your head around what a word is...
Sorry, you seemed to appear here as the new Buddha, claiming to have Right View and lobbying for a united Buddhist doctrine for the whole world to hear. But now you seem to be saying Buddhism is whatever we each want it to be. ;) This is a discussion forum. Discussion tests not only knowledge but equinimity & non-attachment.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:43 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:41 am
all translations are faulty. if you want to be a good translator you can be that but it wont make you better more able to wrap your head around what a word is...
Sorry, you seemed to appear here as the new Buddha, claiming to have Right View and lobbying for a united Buddhist doctrine for the whole world to hear. But now you seem to be saying Buddhism is whatever we each want it to be. ;)
it is funny for smart people to read this probably. Somehow appearing as a Buddha to you, thats a compliment lol.

how do i get out of this one... i dont want all buddhists btw, i want the smart ones to unite and teach eachother and that will happen anyway with or without me. so im good actually as is.

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DooDoot
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:54 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:45 am
how do i get out of this one...
By Nibbāna, the cessation of (ego) existence. End bhava. Don't attach. Don't grasp. :meditate:

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unveiledartist
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by unveiledartist » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:47 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:28 pm
(edit) Nirvana is the cessation of existence, as we know it.


There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support. This, just this, is the end of stress.”
Ud 8.1
:goodpost: :clap:

I was trying to find the sutta that backed up my conclusion on actually dying as nibanna. Nice post.
(Buddha said), "Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice."~AN 4.183. Dont speak ill of other people and traditions with whom teach The Dharma. Right speech is respect in agreements and disagreements alike.

:anjali:

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cappuccino
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by cappuccino » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:54 pm

It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.

~ S 43.1-44
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chownah
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by chownah » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:41 pm

There seems to be no consensus on the meaning of three words: nibbana, cessation, and existence.....even the "is" and the "of" don't seem to be universally agreed upon....that leaves "the"....at least perhaps we can all agree on what "the" means.....I guess....don't know for sure.....
chownah

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cappuccino
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by cappuccino » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:52 pm

All we say
creates karma

karma creates a fate

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rightviewftw
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:36 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:41 pm
There seems to be no consensus on the meaning of three words: nibbana, cessation, and existence.....even the "is" and the "of" don't seem to be universally agreed upon....that leaves "the"....at least perhaps we can all agree on what "the" means.....I guess....don't know for sure.....
chownah
Those words are connected to eachother so it is as you say imo.

I think there are people who agree more or less, "group that agrees" and those who disagree with them, those who disagree with the group in agreement, those hardly agree on anything among themselves. The right view group should in theory be able to understand the position of opposing views but opposing views wont understand the other position easily and will also be idetifiable according to brahmajala sutta. i leave that open to challenge tho.. that is how it appears to me.

Also if people read hundreds of Suttas in several languages and still dont get it, then maybe there is something fundamentally keeping one from getting it, as many are supposedly expected to understand it more or less quickly, as in soup analogy.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:07 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:41 pm
There seems to be no consensus on the meaning of three words: nibbana, cessation, and existence.....
I think the suttas have consensus. The lack of consensus might be resistance to the suttas. For example, the use of the words "Nibbana" & "bhava" appear to have universal meanings in the suttas. Where as the word "nirodha" can be a bit tricky.
This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn45.7
What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left?... five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left?... here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/en/iti44

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