nibbāna is the cessation of existence

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DooDoot
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:06 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:48 am
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
On being asked this by those who have gone forth in other sects, this is how you should answer them:

"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]

"'All phenomena come into play through attention.

"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.

"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.

"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.

"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.

"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.

"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.

"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.

"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'
The above is an obvious mistransation, which was refuted here by Piotr, which seems to make whatever point you are making as invalid. The above dhammas are explained in many suttas and it is so plain & obvious the translations of Thanissaro, Bodhi, Brahmali, etc, are incorrect, here. This again shows, despite many Buddhists reading the same suttas, that each of these Buddhists cannot have Right View.

I informed you previously that a semantic analysis of Pali might debunk much of Theravada; just as a simple sutta analysis of the dhammas in AN 10.58 debunks the current orthodox view of AN 10.58. Just as the universal printing of the Bible debunked the authority of the Catholic Church, so might the universal publication of the Pali suttas debunk the authority of "Theravada".
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:48 am
The phenomena [Aggregates] of which the existence of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is delineated gain footing in the Deathless property. Thus there is production of new state of Phenomena[Aggregates] of and from, previous state of Phenomena[Aggregates].
No. Aggregates are not included in the sutta explanations of "existence" ("bhava") I posted. These suttas appear to show only the idea of "self" ("atta") or idea of "beings" ("satta") is "existence" ("bhava"). The suttas appear to teach the cause of "existence" is craving & attachment. Due to craving & attachment, the sense of "existence" appears to be "imputed" upon the aggregates; just like a puthujjana "imputes" the idea of "Beauty Queen" upon a skeleton with internal organs wrapped in hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin & some make-up & lipstick.
Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

SN 5.10
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm
Nibbana is not " a quality of" it "is the sublime quality" that is ungrasped by the grasping aggregates
There are five aggregates. The above seems to be saying, similar to Thanissaro, the four aggregates of form, feeling, perception & consciousness engage in grasping. :roll: I think a sutta reference is required to support the view that 'the physical body aggregate engages in grasping' is Right View.

For example, when the physical body of a child clings to its mother, is it the physical body grasping to the mother or the mind of the child grasping to the mother?
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm
Desire needs wrong "perception/discernment/cognizing/feeling", wrong "perception/discernment/cognizing/feeling" need ignorance, ignorance need non development of Factors of Enlightenment.
Craving seems to be sufficient as the cause of grasping & suffering, as taught in the 2nd noble truth. Otherwise, ignorance can be identified as the cause of craving. However, there is no explicit need to refer to feeling & perception; even though the 12 links of dependent origination does, when explaining in detail.
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm
Phenomena are felt, what is felt that is also cognized, what is cognized, perceived, what is perceived is discerned, what is discerned is felt, it is all contact, contact
Yes but arahants also appear to cognise, feel & perceive.
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm
and its delineation of other words for aggregates are instrumental for teaching the doctrine so they have their own definition and application in the Dhamma dispensation. Words are a like a map and reality is territory, map is not the territory.
This sounds like DN 15, which is different to the core Dhamma. Recently, the Western scholars such as Bodhi, Thanissaro & Sujato have admitted (confessed) the likelihood DN 15 was composed (probably not by the Buddha) for use in converting Brahmans to Buddhism. In other words, DN 15 might possibly be fake dharma.
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm
If factors of enlightenment are developed to culmination ignorance about formations is no more Element Properties are no more, Deathless property is a singleness.
No. There are many suttas that say the view of elements is wisdom (MN 115). Again, please provide evidence from the suttas showing the Deathless property is singleness to show this is Right View. I have only read the Deathless property is void of greed, hatred & delusion (rather than it is "signless").
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm
If then formations were to gain footing, that is called cessation with residue
DN 11 is also possibly a sutta for Brahmins teaching about a signless immaterial jhana rather than teaching about the Deathless Nibbana. Iti 44 says cessation with residue is when the arahant is void of greed, hatred & delusion but still experiences pleasant & painful vedana. The idea of "no footing" found in DN 11 is not found in Iti 44, which explains cessation with residue.
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm
the experience of cessation can be said to be known to the person who experienced it, he himself being a delineation of formations, he can be said to know the deathless
Again, sutta references are needed to support this above as Right View.
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm
as within that stream of [states of] aggregates
"Stream of aggregates" ("khandha-sota") :shock: . Please provide a sutta reference for this.
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm
recollection of the deathless [peace] can arise, cessation and path to cessation are known to him. That discernment faculty is superior as it discerns all formations as suffering without a shadow of a doubt.
A rock is a compounded thing (sankhara) yet is not suffering. A Buddha has a formations aggregate (SN 22.85) but a Buddha does not suffer. Again, evidence is required to show all formations are suffering.

:reading:
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:39 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:26 pm
Clearly there isn't a consensus. Which interpretation do you think is best supported by the nidana descriptions in SN12.2?

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
Thanks Dinsdale

My personal method of study is to find the definitions of individual Pali words & terms used in SN 12.2, which is why I quoted those suttas in my post. For example, the meaning of the word "bhava" is found in AN 3.76 (and elsewhere); the meaning of "beings" ("satta") found in SN 23.2; the meanings of "kaya, vaci & citta sankhara" found in MN 44 (although others take the meaning from SN 12.51; SN 12.25), etc.

Consider the description of "birth" ("jati") found in SN 12.2. Each of the Pali words in it can be traced in the suttas & their common usage examined. In other words, I do not discern great value in merely reading SN 12.2 because many of the words cannot be understood by merely reading SN 12.2 alone.
Katamā, bhikkhave, jāti? Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, jāti.
Regards

James Tan
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:32 am

[quote
A rock is a compounded thing (sankhara) yet is not suffering. A Buddha has a formations aggregate (SN 22.85) but a Buddha does not suffer. Again, evidence is required to show all formations are suffering.

:reading:
[/quote]

I thought Buddha had a back pain !

pegembara
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by pegembara » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:21 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:33 pm
pegembara wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:52 am
Nibbana is cessation-fullstop.

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding."
— MN 64
The "stilling of all fabrications" here just refers to volitional activity associated with craving and aversion. It doesn't refer to sankharas generally.
Depends on whether one is talking about final Unbinding or not. To be more precise, all experiences are extinguished in parinibbana. So one could say parinibbana is the cessation of experience, not existence.
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:02 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:21 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:33 pm
pegembara wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:52 am
Nibbana is cessation-fullstop.

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding."
— MN 64
The "stilling of all fabrications" here just refers to volitional activity associated with craving and aversion. It doesn't refer to sankharas generally.
Depends on whether one is talking about final Unbinding or not. To be more precise, all experiences are extinguished in parinibbana. So one could say parinibbana is the cessation of experience, not existence.
It seems the quote from MN 64 above is not referring to Parinibbana given, at least in MN 26, this quote is used to describe the Buddha's living experience of Nibbana.
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:33 pm
The "stilling of all fabrications" here just refers to volitional activity associated with craving and aversion. It doesn't refer to sankharas generally.
According to what? Why should "samatho" be translated as "stilling"?
Sabba­saṅ­khā­ra­sama­tho

samatha
calm, quietude of heart
:alien:
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:32 am
I thought Buddha had a back pain !
Maybe. But did Buddha suffer over the pain?

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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:31 am

Oh yeah , the body's pains is another kind of suffering .

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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:41 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:33 pm
Bhava , being , becoming , existence , had to fit and correlates with the twelve nidana correctly otherwise you are heading to wrong direction .
Of course. In the DO sequence, birth, aging and death arise in dependence on bhava, and those are described in a very "physical" way. For this reason I think it is very difficult to interpret bhava as a purely mental activity - it seems to describe a psycho-physical process.

"And what, bhikkhus, is aging-and-death? The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death. Thus this aging and this death are together called aging-and-death.

“And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent into the womb, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth."
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:16 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:41 am
Of course. In the DO sequence, birth, aging and death arise in dependence on bhava, and those are described in a very "physical" way.
The above is an opinion. This is what occurs when students do not examine the meanings of each Pali word. I could offer an alternate explanation but it is your own duty to do your own study & aspire to ("your own") liberation.
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:41 am
And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent into the womb, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth."

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
The words "into a womb" do not actually exist in the Pali. The Pali is:
Katamā, bhikkhave, jāti? Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.
The word "okkanti" is used in many places in the suttas and does not necessarily mean "descent into a womb".
This adharmic wielding of weapons,
descended (okkanto) from times of old:
in this are the innocents slain

Snp 2.7

Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable. One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered (okkanto) the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill...

SN 25.1

Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu lacks faith, is not virtuous, has little learning, is lazy and is stupid. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu endowed with these five things becomes/falls into/is overcome by (okkanto) timidity.

AN 5.158


Well then, Moggallana, whatever perception you have in mind when drowsiness descends (okkamati) on you, don’t attend to that perception, don’t pursue it. It’s possible that by doing this you will shake off your drowsiness.

AN 7.61
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rightviewftw
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:47 am

Ill try giving definitions, maybe it will help understanding.
existence = abstract word, in that one cant point to it. It is a word. Therefore i am sure those who doubt OP statement will give different definitions if told explain what they mean.

In the doctrine it is clear to me at least that :

All that arises will cease.

All has a definition in sabba sutta:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.
So, replacing All with the definition;

eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas that arise will cease.

Supported:
At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
Lets simplify to sub part of all, 1/6th or so, make it

"The eye & forms exist"

Then ask

Q: what exactly might be the grounds for this statement?

A: There is seeing, therefore there is that which sees and that which is seen.

One could then be further questioned on his position,

Q: Seeing, Seeing, to what extent or what is seeing?

A: It is that part of reality that is not Thinking, Tasting, Smelling, Sensing and Hearing.

Further should be questioned

Q: Why i do not take position of saying that all three "Seeing+Eye+Seen" exist but only say Eye+Seen exist?

A: Because the former is undefendable position. As seeing is clearly not the whole story, because I can not use words to define words.
If i were to say "Seeing is because there is the experience of seeing" then go on to say "experience is thinking, tasting seeing" and keep introducing new words without any referrent that is explaining words with words.

However i can defend the position where Seeing is proof in the here and now for existence of two things, the "eye" and "seen". Because without an eye there is no seeing and without light there is no seeing.

Explaining how seeing arises that is a different topic.

need to go further?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:54 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:47 am
Ill try giving definitions, maybe it will help understanding.
Sorry but English translations here appear to be just bouncing into speculative opinions; as occurred with AN 10.58, where ideas were imagined.
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:47 am
Lets simplify to sub part of all, 1/6th or so, make it

"The eye & forms exist"
Sorry. A sutta has not been quoted above. In addition, the phrase in Pali "the eye & forms exist" would probably not include the Pali word "bhava"; just as the following verse about Right View does not include "bhava".
Dvayanissito khvāyaṃ, kaccāna, loko yebhuyyena—atthitañceva natthitañca

By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by a polarity, that of existence & non-existence.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.15
The Buddha did not speak English. Our personal subjective interpretations of English language translations may not be the Dhamma and may not be Right View. In the suttas, "bhava" appears to be a mental defilement or "asava".
There are these three fermentations (asava): the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. This is called fermentation. MN 9

This mode of perception is empty of the effluent (asava) of sensuality... becoming (bhava)... ignorance. MN 121
More here:
Bhūtamidanti bhikkhave, passathā”ti?

Bhikkhus, do you see: ‘This has come to be [exist]’?”—

MN 38
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rightviewftw
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:03 am

you could at least try to entertain the idea before you say that it is wrong.

If someone is clearly wrong one should ask leading questions otherwise it is just cruel to ask people to explain themselves if you know for a fact that they are wrong.

If one is not sure other person is wrong, then should show respect at least because there is some chance that the other person is right and is doing you a favor.

Unless you are teaching or helping one has little to offer other than expression of free speech and should at least try and be polite about it imo. These things are more or less the norm in the world afaik.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:08 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:03 am
you could at least try to entertain the idea before you say that it is wrong.
Dhamma is not about entertainment. You appear to have made so many posts here about how all of Buddhism must follow a united doctrine. But now you want me to entertain ideas that are not related to what the Buddha taught. AN 10.58 does not teach what you said it does because many other suttas explain AN 10.58.
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Dinsdale
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:16 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:41 am
Of course. In the DO sequence, birth, aging and death arise in dependence on bhava, and those are described in a very "physical" way.
The above is an opinion. This is what occurs when students do not examine the meanings of each Pali word. I could offer an alternate explanation but it is your own duty to do your own study & aspire to ("your own") liberation.
No, not an "opinion", just a straightforward observation of what SN12.2 actually says. Or perhaps you just don't like what it says? By all means leave out "descent into the womb" in the description of the birth nidana, my point remains valid across the descriptions of birth, aging and death - they are described in a very physical way. Actually I think you are nit-picking here, because you know my observation is basically accurate.

I'm not convinced by your comparative approach, by the way. In the suttas meaning is always dependent upon context, and some of these terms have different meanings in different suttas. Trying to dismiss the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2 on the basis of "this term is described differently in another sutta" is not a valid approach. Bear in mind that SN12 is the main treatment of DO in the suttas, and SN12.2 occupies a central place in it. Also note that these nidana "definitions" are repeated in MN9.
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:11 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:09 am
...just a straightforward observation of what SN12.2 actually says. Or perhaps you just don't like what it says? By all means leave out "descent into the womb" in the description of the birth nidana, my point remains valid across the descriptions of birth, aging and death - they are described in a very physical way. Actually I think you are nit-picking here, because you know my observation is basically accurate.
But its not. :|

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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:08 am
now you want me to entertain ideas that are not related to what the Buddha taught.
confirmed did not entertain ideas and concluded that it is not what the Buddha taught. Ideas expressed on a Buddhist forum.
again as i concluded earlier, not worth speaking to.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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