nibbāna is the cessation of existence

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cappuccino
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:10 am

"I am" is a translation of the fetter of conceit.

James Tan
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by James Tan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:12 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:10 am
"I am" is a translation of the fetter of conceit.
But that is not bhava !

pegembara
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by pegembara » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:34 am

Being awake to how a being (your existence) come about. So it's about the realisation of our non-existence.
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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aflatun
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by aflatun » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:47 am

pegembara wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:34 am
Being awake to how a being (your existence) come about. So it's about the realisation of our non-existence.
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:goodpost:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

rightviewftw
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:22 am

existence as duration, does imply life, that which is unborn, how can have existence, it would be a lie to say that without clarifications.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:01 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:22 am
existence as duration, does imply life, that which is unborn, how can have existence, it would be a lie to say that without clarifications.
It has been suggested existence (bhava) is the sense that "self" & "beings" exist; that when the mind is void of any sense of self, both internally & externally, this is the cessation of 'existence'. This is how Buddhists disagree about Right View, even though they each claim to follow & have right view the Buddha teachings. One Buddhist believes a physical life duration is 'existence'. Another Buddhist believes 'existence' is an idea of the ego mind.
'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?

Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established (patiṭṭhitaṃ) in a property. Thus there is the production of renewed existence (bha­vā) in the future.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

patiṭṭhita
pp. of patiṭṭhahati
was established; stood firmly; found a support

patiṭṭhāha
having one’s footing in, hold on, tenacity
Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance (ṭhitiyā) of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing (patiṭṭhā) of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of future renewed existence (bha­vā). When there is the production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.38

rightviewftw
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:48 am

The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established (patiṭṭhitaṃ) in a property. Thus there is the production of renewed existence (bha­vā) in the future.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

patiṭṭhita
pp. of patiṭṭhahati
was established; stood firmly; found a support

patiṭṭhāha
having one’s footing in, hold on, tenacity
Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance (ṭhitiyā) of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing (patiṭṭhā) of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of future renewed existence (bha­vā). When there is the production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.38
+
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Consciousness

"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"
+
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Do you take it on conviction that the faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation?"
+
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
On being asked this by those who have gone forth in other sects, this is how you should answer them:

"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]

"'All phenomena come into play through attention.

"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.

"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.

"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.

"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.

"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.

"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.

"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.

"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'
would make seemingly make


The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established (patiṭṭhitaṃ) in a property. Thus there is the production of renewed existence (bha­vā) in the future.


to read:

The phenomena [Aggregates] of which the existence of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is delineated gain footing in the Deathless property. Thus there is production of new state of Phenomena[Aggregates] of and from, previous state of Phenomena[Aggregates].

On a moment to moment basis, ducy?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

Dinsdale
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:23 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:06 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:56 pm
This isn't answering my question. What do you think "cessation of existence" actually means, practically speaking? Do you have a clear answer?
I supposed can you first define "existence"?
Does the meaning of existence in English is equivalent to bhava ? It seems that Buddha was referring bhava quite different from our understanding of existence in English .
Yes, "existence" here refers to "bhava". In SN12.2 it's described as existence in the three realms.

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:26 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:01 am
It has been suggested existence (bhava) is the sense that "self" & "beings" exist; that when the mind is void of any sense of self, both internally & externally, this is the cessation of 'existence'. This is how Buddhists disagree about Right View, even though they each claim to follow & have right view the Buddha teachings. One Buddhist believes a physical life duration is 'existence'. Another Buddhist believes 'existence' is an idea of the ego mind.
Clearly there isn't a consensus. Which interpretation do you think is best supported by the nidana descriptions in SN12.2?

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:33 pm

pegembara wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:52 am
Nibbana is cessation-fullstop.

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding."
— MN 64
The "stilling of all fabrications" here just refers to volitional activity associated with craving and aversion. It doesn't refer to sankharas generally.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

James Tan
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by James Tan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:48 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:23 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:06 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:56 pm
This isn't answering my question. What do you think "cessation of existence" actually means, practically speaking? Do you have a clear answer?
I supposed can you first define "existence"?
Does the meaning of existence in English is equivalent to bhava ? It seems that Buddha was referring bhava quite different from our understanding of existence in English .
Yes, "existence" here refers to "bhava". In SN12.2 it's described as existence in the three realms.

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
Sorry , I disagree with you . This sutta clearly
Was corrupted .

Dinsdale
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Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:53 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:48 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:23 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:06 am


I supposed can you first define "existence"?
Does the meaning of existence in English is equivalent to bhava ? It seems that Buddha was referring bhava quite different from our understanding of existence in English .
Yes, "existence" here refers to "bhava". In SN12.2 it's described as existence in the three realms.

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
Sorry , I disagree with you . This sutta clearly
Was corrupted .
That's a bold claim. Can you provide some evidence?

By the way, these nidana "definitions" are repeated in MN9 and elsewhere.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn9
Buddha save me from new-agers!

rightviewftw
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm

Nibbana is not " a quality of" it "is the sublime quality" that is ungrasped by the grasping aggregates as they do not gain a footing because of non-arising of certain states of these Aggregates which we could delineate as wrong intention which could be giving rise to more volitional formations of these Aggregates/Sabba/All are of the Four Elements [Properties of elements], Deathless Property is also a fundamental Property in which other properties that are not Deathless gain temporary footing.

Desire needs wrong "perception/discernment/cognizing/feeling", wrong "perception/discernment/cognizing/feeling" need ignorance, ignorance need non development of Factors of Enlightenment.

Phenomena are felt, what is felt that is also cognized, what is cognized, perceived, what is perceived is discerned, what is discerned is felt, it is all contact, contact and its delineation of other words for aggregates are instrumental for teaching the doctrine so they have their own definition and application in the Dhamma dispensation. Words are a like a map and reality is territory, map is not the territory.
If factors of enlightenment are developed to culmination ignorance about formations is no more Element Properties are no more, Deathless property is a singleness.

If then formations were to gain footing, that is called cessation with residue, the experience of cessation can be said to be known to the person who experienced it, he himself being a delineation of formations, he can be said to know the deathless, as within that stream of [states of] aggregates recollection of the deathless [peace] can arise, cessation and path to cessation are known to him. That discernment faculty is superior as it discerns all formations as suffering without a shadow of a doubt.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 18 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

James Tan
Posts: 1076
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by James Tan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:33 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:53 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:48 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:23 pm


Yes, "existence" here refers to "bhava". In SN12.2 it's described as existence in the three realms.

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
Sorry , I disagree with you . This sutta clearly
Was corrupted .
That's a bold claim. Can you provide some evidence?

By the way, these nidana "definitions" are repeated in MN9 and elsewhere.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn9
Oh my friend , you have to work it out yourself .
We should not take the sutta passed down to us literary without inspecting ! Kalama sutta , you remember ? Don't take for granted everything you received . Unfortunately , many sutta were corrupted due to many reasons and one of it is the disciples could be interpreted wrongly when they memorized it and passed it down to someone . So forth and so on .

If you understand the DO , but I doubt that many also stumped at it with the scholars I came across . They also could not clearly defined and understand the nidana correctly such as namarupa which diverse from one and another .

Bhava , being , becoming , existence , had to fit and correlates with the twelve nidana correctly otherwise you are heading to wrong direction .

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cappuccino
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Re: nibbāna is the cessation of existence

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:49 pm

"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.

"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.
Kalama Sutta

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