Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by SarathW »

From another post:
"Although I theoretically believe in Nibbana, I believe in this day and age it is not very possible because of lack of good teachers. The most one can hope for is to have a well-rounded idea of Dhamma, lead a Dhammic life, be a decent and good person."

============
What is your opinion on above post?
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dylanj
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by dylanj »

Yes. Lack of good teachers? What problem is that?

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."

"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
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Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
thepea
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by thepea »

Not only possible but expected within some traditions.
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DooDoot
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by DooDoot »

How does dropping craving & clinging require a teacher? A teacher may tell you what task to do but a teacher cannot do the task for you. The Buddhas only point the way.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

To Light a Fire
A Dhamma Discourse
by
The Venerable Webu Sayadaw

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... bl122.html



:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

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No_Mind
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by No_Mind »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:26 pm From another post:
"Although I theoretically believe in Nibbana, I believe in this day and age it is not very possible because of lack of good teachers. The most one can hope for is to have a well-rounded idea of Dhamma, lead a Dhammic life, be a decent and good person."

============
What is your opinion on above post?
Attribution would be nice and the context too
No_Mind wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:31 pm
SarathW wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:47 pm The results so far are very close to the result of SC.
I surprised why so few want to attain Nibbana.
Although I theoretically believe in Nibbana, I believe in this day and age it is not very possible because of lack of good teachers. Most one can hope for is to have a well rounded idea of Dhamma, lead a Dhammic life, be a decent and good person.

I have tried all three and see little scope for further progress unless my circumstances change dramatically.

Let me explain .. assume it is 1992, and I live in Maldives, I am a married man .. an illiterate Muslim fisherman .. with five kids. There is no internet (it being 1992), no Buddhist monastery, no Hindu temples, no college or university courses on religion, no library .. my scope for learning about the Dhamma would have been nil.

But I live in India .. where a Dhammic religion is predominant, it is 2018, I have limitless access to internet, large number of free pdfs and YouTube videos and podcasts describe what is Buddhism; I am single, a middle aged person with very little interest in shopping malls and accepted definition of socialising and have at least 500 hours a year to spare to learn Buddhism/meditate etc .. my scope for learning about the Dhamma is enormous and I have utilized it fully.

If I was born in early 20th century Thailand and was a student of Ajahn Sao Kantasilo I would have aimed at Nibbana. Similarly in India there were great yogis till about 1940s or so.

What a person can attain is limited by the era he is born in and his circumstances.

:namaste:
:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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No_Mind
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by No_Mind »

thepea wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:52 pm Not only possible but expected within some traditions.
Which ones?

dylanj wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:28 pm Yes. Lack of good teachers? What problem is that?
and
DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:52 pm How does dropping craving & clinging require a teacher? A teacher may tell you what task to do but a teacher cannot do the task for you. The Buddhas only point the way.
If one goes by the popular reasoning I have a book I can learn from it .. and reach Nibbana then why did you have a teacher at school and college? You had books .. you could learn from them.

By your reasoning every teacher in every learning institution is inessential and dispensable.

Very fallacious, very Western understanding of Nibbana. Nibbana is not a DIY kit or meccano set. Small parts of Dhamma can be attained by oneself.

:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Circle5
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by Circle5 »

No_Mind wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:19 am If one goes by the popular reasoning I have a book I can learn from it .. and reach Nibbana then why did you have a teacher at school and college? You had books .. you could learn from them.

By your reasoning every teacher in every learning institution is inessential and dispensable.

Very fallacious, Western understanding of Nibbana. Nibbana is not a DIY kit or meccano set. Parts of Dhamma are DIY.

:namaste:
They should go to one of those asian therevada collages, where you spend 8 years reading zero suttas. :juggling:
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No_Mind
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by No_Mind »

Circle5 wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:32 am They should go to one of those asian therevada collages, where you spend 8 years reading zero suttas. :juggling:
Whoever said a college .. I said a teacher. For lack of a better word a "guru".

You cannot learn maths by yourself or yoga or ballet or tailoring .. how can you attain something as rare as Nibbana without a teacher in beginning stages (say first 5-8 years of practice)


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Circle5
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by Circle5 »

No_Mind wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:36 am
Circle5 wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:32 am They should go to one of those asian therevada collages, where you spend 8 years reading zero suttas. :juggling:
Whoever said a college .. I said a teacher.

:namaste:
Sure, why spend a ton of time reading and contemplating thousands of pages of suttas. Who wants to do that ? You can just ask an asian monk to tell you everything about what Buddha taught, while 99.99% cases he hasn't read more than a couple of pages of suttas himself. :anjali:
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No_Mind
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by No_Mind »

Circle5 wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:38 am Sure, why spend a ton of time reading and contemplating thousands of pages of suttas. Who wants to do that ? You can just ask an asian monk to tell you everything about what Buddha taught, while 99.99% cases he hasn't read more than a couple of pages of suttas himself. :anjali:
The question being debated is "Can you attain Nibbana without help of a good teacher" not "Can you learn suttas without help of a good teacher"

Knowing many, many suttas is quite unnecessary for attaining Nibbana. If you go back to Buddha's time how many monks heard all of his sermons? Most heard very few of them. But they became enlightened in rather vast numbers.

Knowing many, many suttas is a personal endeavour entirely optional and inessential to pursuit of Nibbana.

:namaste:
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Circle5
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by Circle5 »

No_Mind wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:36 am

You cannot learn maths by yourself or yoga or ballet or tailoring .. how can you attain something as rare as Nibbana without a teacher in beginning stages (say first 5-8 years of practice)
Sure, but you also can not learn ballet by having a mechanic as your teacher, or learn mechanics having a painter as your teacher.

When it comes to buddhism, we have to remember the word comes from "Buddha". You can't learn buddhism from a guy who hasn't read more than 3-4 suttas himself. It doesn't matter if he is a monk or wanderer. There were countless wanderers in Buddha time too, none of them achieved anything, cause it is hard to find out the dhamma. It's was hard for the guy who discovered the steam engine, same goes for discovering how the world works. (the dhamma). You can't have 1000 guys out there, give them 5 years and then you have like 950 of them discovering the steam engine. You probably won't have even a single one.
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No_Mind
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by No_Mind »

Circle5 wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:46 am
No_Mind wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:36 am

You cannot learn maths by yourself or yoga or ballet or tailoring .. how can you attain something as rare as Nibbana without a teacher in beginning stages (say first 5-8 years of practice)
Sure, but you also can not learn ballet by having a mechanic as your teacher, or learn mechanics having a painter as your teacher.

When it comes to buddhism, we have to remember the word comes from "Buddha". You can't learn buddhism from a guy who hasn't read more than 3-4 suttas himself. It doesn't matter if he is a monk or wanderer. There were countless wanderers in Buddha time too, none of them achieved anything, cause it is hard to find out the dhamma. It's was hard for the guy who discovered the steam engine, same goes for discovering how the world works. (the dhamma). You can't have 1000 guys out there, give them 5 years and then you have like 950 of them discovering the steam engine. You probably won't have even a single one.
Would you read the OP and following the OP my OP

It was not about any monk but proper teacher.

:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
thepea
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by thepea »

No_Mind wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:31 am
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:52 pm Not only possible but expected within some traditions.
Which ones?
I imagine most of the traditions which came from Burma mahasi, Goenka, ims.
The Sri Lanken group who I began practice with seemed split on this matter the head monk in his own way lead me to believe this very possible at least. also a personal discussion with bhante gunerattana seemed to confirm this attainment as reasonable. Also a monk I was close with who was an extremely dedicated meditator hunted towards attainments of his own but not coming right out and saying it, kind of read between the lines.
Some of the disciples were split some seemed mostly dedicated to attaining a good rebirth(enlightenment in future) opposed to reaching the goal in this lifetime
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No_Mind
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by No_Mind »

thepea wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:01 am
No_Mind wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:31 am
thepea wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:52 pm Not only possible but expected within some traditions.
Which ones?
I imagine most of the traditions which came from Burma mahasi, Goenka, ims.
The Sri Lanken group who I began practice with seemed split on this matter the head monk in his own way lead me to believe this very possible at least. also a personal discussion with bhante gunerattana seemed to confirm this attainment as reasonable. Also a monk I was close with who was an extremely dedicated meditator hunted towards attainments of his own but not coming right out and saying it, kind of read between the lines.
Some of the disciples were split some seemed mostly dedicated to attaining a good rebirth(enlightenment in future) opposed to reaching the goal in this lifetime
Mr Goenka had a teacher as you know. Are you telling me Mahasi tradition requires no teacher? I find that quite unbelievable. Can anyone else back Thepea up?


:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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