Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by James Tan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:58 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:52 am
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:36 am
Walk your talk or confess that you are putting forth hypothesis and conjecture and that you are encouraging a congregation of good Buddhists to walk down a wrong path and leading them further away from cessation of suffering.
The Buddha said the suttas will be the teacher when he is gone. Sorry but I can't walk or talk different to what the Buddha said. Nibbana is the cessation of craving. The path is upholding morality (with wisdom) & abandoning craving. This is the whole path, according to the suttas, which also say abandoning or giving up craving is even the method to develop samadhi (SN 48.10).
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:36 am
Show an example of a person who attained Nibbana/cessation of suffering, purely by reading pdfs, listening to podcasts and watching YouTube videos, without having a good teacher at some point of their practice.
I didn't mention the above. I referred to the suttas as the teacher.
Actually , some how , one way or another we need certain kind of teacher , not necessarily Straight to Nibbana . If we attend to dhamma classes and talks and workshops or courses , all those things need certain kind of teacher and guidance .
Meditations certainly need a good adept teacher , that's for sure .
Even , as a bhikkhu(ni) , you need to learn Dhamma and Vinaya from your preceptor .
The first five bhikkhu needs the Buddha to expound the four noble truth to them without which they could not have attained liberation what more are we in this age of degeneration .
To find anyone that able to attain nibbana in this age , my guess the chances are really slim .
Perhaps , no .

I believe most of the members here are actually very well versed in the dhamma and some even vinaya , especially those well educated , and I supposed have certain degree of jhana , but then to attain even first fruition is something very rare .
It seems that prior to attain sotapanna , one has to be able to comprehend the whole nidana links .
However , many still could not understand what is namarupa for certain .

thepea
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by thepea » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:05 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:50 am
thepea wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:49 am
So meditation is not required we just need to read suttas is this what your saying?
No. The suttas I mentioned guide or provide instruction for meditation.
I glanced through your replies in this thread I’m unsure if your opinion here.
Can we attain nibbana in this day and age? If all you use are suttas is this a possibility or are you saying it is not possible.

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Zom
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:03 pm

From another post:
"Although I theoretically believe in Nibbana, I believe in this day and age it is not very possible because of lack of good teachers. The most one can hope for is to have a well-rounded idea of Dhamma, lead a Dhammic life, be a decent and good person."

============
What is your opinion on above post?
If by "nibbana" arahantship is meant, then I partly agree. Partly, because "finding a good teacher" doesn't really matter here. The problem is not in teachers, but in people themselves - they are too deluded and filled with defliments to the brim -) Buddha said that even during his time "people were [already] deteriorating" and because of that less and less new arahants appeared no matter how well he (Buddha himself) taught. If to follow this logic, then that famous canonical commentary about "5000 years" with certain maximum possible attainments per each 1000 years looks valid. That means in our time the best we can hope for is anagamita, a state of non-returning (jhana is required). And after that do something for some millennium of millenniums in brahmalokas :? :D

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Bundokji
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by Bundokji » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:27 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:03 pm
The problem is not in teachers, but in people themselves - they are too deluded and filled with defliments to the brim -) Buddha said that even during his time "people were [already] deteriorating" and because of that less and less new arahants appeared no matter how well he (Buddha himself) taught.
How do you think people are deteriorating? in what sense?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Zom
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:24 pm

How do you think people are deteriorating? in what sense?
Obviously, in the sense of (as sutta says) "little dust in their eyes". That is, as time passes (from the moment of Buddha's enlightenment), less and less people with "little dust" remain. From here, less and less arahants... then, less and less non-returners... etc... then (as Commy posits) after 5000 years no more Dhamma in the world, then dark period (with a few pacceka-buddhas perhaps), then Buddha Metteya, a lot of arahants, and then... (repeat) -)

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No_Mind
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:07 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:18 am
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:36 am
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:25 am
/../
Show an example of a person who attained Nibbana/cessation of suffering, purely by reading pdfs, listening to podcasts and watching YouTube videos, without having a good teacher at some point of their practice.

Walk your talk or confess that you are putting forth hypothesis and conjecture and that you are encouraging a congregation of good Buddhists to walk down a wrong path and leading them further away from cessation of suffering.

:namaste:
I don't think the pdfs or podcasts apply but there is even a name given to people who attain nibbana/cessation without a teacher....they are called "pachekah buddhas". They are mentioned in the suttas.
chownah
A pratyekabuddha is a very special person/phenomenon and occurs only when a particular Buddha Śãsana has ceased. Dhamma as taught by Goutama Buddha is alive and well now. No pratyekabuddha is possible at this time.


This
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:52 am
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:36 am
Show an example of a person who attained Nibbana/cessation of suffering, purely by reading pdfs, listening to podcasts and watching YouTube videos, without having a good teacher at some point of their practice.
I didn't mention the above. I referred to the suttas as the teacher.
According to you is contained in this?
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:42 am
Maybe here:
To whoever, Ānanda, this thought occurs: ‘I will lead the Community of monks’ or ‘I am the instructor of the Community of monks’ let him speak, Ānanda, regarding the Community of monks. But to the Realised One, Ānanda, this thought does not occur: ‘I will lead the Community of monks’ or ‘I am the instructor of the Community of monks’. Then why, Ānanda, should the Realised One speak regarding the Community of monks?

Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn16
Where does it say do not have a teacher? Buddha speaks about nil possibility of a papal figure succeeding him.

Of course I agree let the Dhamma be the only refuge and island but how will one learn the Dhamma without a teacher?

Anyway this foolish argument has gone on far enough. I cannot argue with a cherry picker who misinterprets suttas at will to suit his own ends.

I exit my conversation with you on this thread.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

JiWe2
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by JiWe2 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:20 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:18 am
The Buddha said the suttas will be the teacher when he is gone.
This is the answer I was waiting for.
But I am looking for the exact word and the Sutta reference.

:twothumbsup:
The Blessed One’s Final Exhortation:
Now the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ānanda, saying: “It may be, Ānanda, that to some among you the thought will come: ‘Ended is the word of the Master; we have a Master no longer.’ But it should not, Ānanda, be so considered. For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and the Discipline, that shall be your Master when I am gone.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh067_Vajira_ ... xhortation

2600htz
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by 2600htz » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:47 pm

Hello:

I am bended to think that currently in the world there are some Anagamis with fruition living around us.
Arahants, i don´t know, maybe its already too late, maybe there are some but they choose not to reveal themselves.

Regards.

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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:58 pm

I am bended to think that currently in the world there are some Anagamis with fruition living around us.
I hope so. Unfortunately I don't know people with perfect samadhi. Maybe they naturally prefer to stay away from the crowd in this dark age and hide their abilities 8-) At least, I think, I would have done so.

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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:41 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:18 am
The Buddha said the suttas will be the teacher when he is gone.
This is the answer I was waiting for.
But I am looking for the exact word and the Sutta reference.

:twothumbsup:
The Sixth Chapter for Recitation
40: The Last Instructions of the Realised One

Then the Gracious One addressed venerable Ānanda, saying: “It may be, Ānanda, that some of you may think in this way: ‘Past is the Teacher’s word, there is now no Teacher for us.’ But it should not be seen like that, Ānanda, whatever Teaching and Discipline has been taught by me or laid down, Ānanda, that is your Teacher after my passing away.

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn16

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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:58 pm

Thanissaro's translation:

Then the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda, "Now, if it occurs to any of you — 'The teaching has lost its authority; we are without a Teacher' — do not view it in that way. Whatever Dhamma & Vinaya I have pointed out & formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when I am gone.

DN 16


Remain with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as your refuge, without anything else as a refuge.
Samyutta Nikaya 47.13 and also at Digha Nikaya 26.

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DooDoot
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:48 pm

JiWe2 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:20 pm
The Blessed One’s Final Exhortation:
Now the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ānanda, saying: “It may be, Ānanda, that to some among you the thought will come: ‘Ended is the word of the Master; we have a Master no longer.’ But it should not, Ānanda, be so considered. For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and the Discipline, that shall be your Master when I am gone.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh067_Vajira_ ... xhortation
Thank you. I couldn't find it. Its a long sutta. :smile:
DNS wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:41 pm
40: The Last Instructions of the Realised One

Then the Gracious One addressed venerable Ānanda, saying: “It may be, Ānanda, that some of you may think in this way: ‘Past is the Teacher’s word, there is now no Teacher for us.’ But it should not be seen like that, Ānanda, whatever Teaching and Discipline has been taught by me or laid down, Ānanda, that is your Teacher after my passing away.

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn16

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DooDoot
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:02 pm

thepea wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:05 pm
I glanced through your replies in this thread I’m unsure if your opinion here.
Can we attain nibbana in this day and age? If all you use are suttas is this a possibility or are you saying it is not possible.
I think @No_Mind lead the discussion to go astray. All I originally posted was I think the mind can attain Nibbana if the mind can end craving. Therefore, my opinion here is if it is possible to end craving then it is possible to attain Nibbana.

Regards :smile:

thepea
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by thepea » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:32 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:02 pm
I think @No_Mind lead the discussion to go astray. All I originally posted was I think the mind can attain Nibbana if the mind can end craving. Therefore, my opinion here is if it is possible to end craving then it is possible to attain Nibbana.

Regards :smile:
Why is mind any different now then 2500 yrs ago?

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DooDoot
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Re: Can we attain Nibbana in this day and age?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:41 pm

thepea wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:32 pm
Why is mind any different now then 2500 yrs ago?
I never posted the mind is different now compared to 2,5000 years ago & I never posted it is not possible to end craving, now.

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