Combatting Guruism

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Is it possible to get a definition of what "Guruism" means?

I would say, the belief that the Buddha & his words are not enough but that it is necessary to follow one of his disciples as some sort of middleman to reach the goal.

I can find plenty of suttas about seeking out teachers

Now the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "It may be, Ananda, that to some among you the thought will come: 'Ended is the word of the Master; we have a Master no longer.' But it should not, Ananda, be so considered. For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and the Discipline, that shall be your Master when I am gone.

The idea of relying completely on one's own deluded understanding to guide oneself out of delusion seems rather illogical to me. For me, it is a better approach to spend time with friends or teachers who I've been able to test according to the sutta I quoted above, than to believe that my own understanding is correct.

We have confidence in the Teacher, we have confidence in the Dhamma, we have fulfilled the precepts, and our companions in the Dhamma are dear and agreeable to us whether they are layfolk or those gone forth. These are the four things declared to us by the Blessed One who knows and sees, accomplished and fully enlightened, on seeing which in ourselves we say as we do.'

He does not abide with a mind obsessed and enslaved by doubt ... he understands as it actually is the escape from the arisen doubt, and doubt together with the underlying tendency to it is abandoned in him.

..."There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without relying on that path, on that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters — this is not possible.

Metta,
Paul.

[Circle5]

Now the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "It may be, Ananda, that to some among you the thought will come: 'Ended is the word of the Master; we have a Master no longer.' But it should not, Ananda, be so considered. For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and the Discipline, that shall be your Master when I am gone.

[DooDoot]

To those who think we cannot rely on individual interpretation: If we cannot trust our understanding of the suttas, the actual word of the Buddha himself, how can we trust our understanding of a teacher explaining from those suttas, let alone the teacher themself? This seems to be a self-defeating argument as without a doubt there is chance for a teacher to be wrong - not so with the suttas.

Most, including the scholars, appear to not know Pali 100% so how can we claim to know the actual words of the Buddha, let alone know unauthentic suttas? For example, many Buddhists are imagining things that are not there when merely reading Dhp1. While I personally think the suttas are good enough, I have rarely observed anyone explaining the suttas using the contextual frameworks & sub-definitions found within them. In other words, translations by the famous translators are not the Buddha's words therefore what do we actually mean when asserting the phrase: "the actual word of the Buddha himself"?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

In other words, translations by Bhikkhus Bodhi, Thanissaro, Sujato, etc, are not the Buddha's words.

That's true, and even if we're fluent in Pali, our understanding of certain words may differ from what the Buddha originally intended.

Nonetheless, to a point made earlier, if we don't have what you might call "pure" access to the Buddha's words, then neither do gurus and teachers.

We either understand and accept the limitations regarding our access to Buddhavacana, and work within those parameters, or we throw the baby out with the bathwater and outsource our learning and understanding to gurus... or worse, to a technique, rite or ritual. The choice is ours. In this regard, I think the OP said something particularly wise...

If you play it safe, I think you will spend more of your energy on the Buddha's own words & as a result you will gradually become prepared to identify genuine teachers. When you begin to do so you will still be cautious, & thus still default to the Buddha. You will also likely notice that there are some teachers who do not introduce anything extraneous at all but simply arrange & connect the discourses according to topic & audience. But sadly they will be a minority.

Metta,
Paul.

[DooDoot]

That's true, and even if we're fluent in Pali, our understanding of certain words may differ from what the Buddha originally intended.

I would say, the belief that the Buddha & his words are not enough but that it is necessary to follow one of his disciples as some sort of middleman to reach the goal.

Personally, I have faith in the perfection of Dhamma, which is defined as "well-spoken". As I posted (as you were replying), I have found most important terms are defined in the suttas and words that are unclear may be understood by doing a contextual analysis, i.e., examining everywhere those words are used in the suttas. Thus, with the resources we have today & with our personal duty of pariyatti dhamma (study), I think relying on gurus is a thing of the past. To say: "the Buddha & his words are not enough" is to assert the Lord Buddha was an imperfect teacher. It is to reject the Buddha's final instruction in DN 16 that the Dhamma he taught will be the "guru". It is contrary to the 2nd refuge.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings DooDoot,

Personally, I have faith in the perfection of Dhamma, which is defined as "well-spoken". As I posted (as you were replying), most important terms are defined in the suttas and words that are unclear may be understood by doing a contextual analysis, i.e., examining everywhere those words are used in the suttas.

Agreed, and I find that people who do as such are indeed the best "teachers"... not that I think there needs to be any formality over the roles of "teacher" and "student". Fellow travellers on the path who openly share their insights and understandings can be a greater source of potential learning than a formal guru.

Metta,
Paul.

[chownah]

Personally, I have faith in the perfection of Dhamma, which is defined as "well-spoken".

The dhamma in and of itself does nothing.....it is the individual who earnestly strives to understand and implement the dhamma that generates the kamma which leads to release. Perhaps the most important kind of faith to have is the faith that through ones own efforts that one can make progress towards the goal.......without faith in ones own ability to find the path one might differ judgement to some guru.
chownah

[Saengnapha]

Personally, I have faith in the perfection of Dhamma, which is defined as "well-spoken".

The dhamma in and of itself does nothing.....it is the individual who earnestly strives to understand and implement the dhamma that generates the kamma which leads to release. Perhaps the most important kind of faith to have is the faith that through ones own efforts that one can make progress towards the goal.......without faith in ones own ability to find the path one might differ judgement to some guru.
chownah

Funny, I see it as the relinquishing of one's efforts that 'progress' could be made.

Jacopone da Todi:

The light of the intellect,
Which had seemed dazzling,
Now seems dark and feeble;
What it thought was strength
It now recognizes as weakness.
No longer can the intellect describe divinity
As it once did when it could speak;
For perfect Good no metaphor is adequate.

Once united with God it knows
That what you think is day is night,
What you think is light is darkness.
Until you reach this point, and the self is annihilated,
Everything you think is true is really false.
You do not yet have in you pure charity
While you can think of yourself
And the victory you are striving for.

[DooDoot]

Personally, I have faith in the perfection of Dhamma, which is defined as "well-spoken".

The dhamma in and of itself does nothing.....it is the individual who earnestly strives to understand and implement the dhamma that generates the kamma which leads to release. Perhaps the most important kind of faith to have is the faith that through ones own efforts that one can make progress towards the goal.......without faith in ones own ability to find the path one might differ judgement to some guru.

Thanks Chownah but this does not appear to be related to my post, which was about comprehending the suttas plainly as a sure guide (rather than about unguided practise seeking to generate kamma rather than end kamma).

... just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma... AN 6.63

[Dhammarakkhito]

sādhu... “But what, Ānanda, does the Community of monks expect of me? The Teaching has been taught by me, Ānanda, without having made a distinction between esoteric and exoteric, for the Realised One there is nothing, Ānanda, of a closed teacher’s fist in regard to the Teaching.

To whoever, Ānanda, this thought occurs: ‘I will lead the Community of monks’ or ‘I am the instructor of the Community of monks’ let him speak, Ānanda, regarding the Community of monks. But to the Realised One, Ānanda, this thought does not occur: ‘I will lead the Community of monks’ or ‘I am the instructor of the Community of monks’. Then why, Ānanda, should the Realised One speak regarding the Community of monks?

I, Ānanda, at present, am old, elderly, of great age, far gone, advanced in years, I am eighty years old. It is like, Ānanda, an old cart, which only keeps going when shored up with bamboo, just so, Ānanda, I think the Realised One’s body only keeps going when shored up with bamboo.

When the Realised One doesn’t pay attention, Ānanda, to any of the signs, when all feelings have ceased, he lives having established the signless mind-concentration, and at that time, Ānanda, the Realised One’s body is most comfortable.

Therefore, Ānanda, live with yourself as an island, yourself as a refuge, with no other refuge, with the Teaching as an island, the Teaching as a refuge, with no other refuge. And how, Ānanda, does a monk live with himself as an island, himself as a refuge, with no other refuge, with the Teaching as an island, the Teaching as a refuge, with no other refuge?

Here, Ānanda, a monk dwells contemplating the nature of the body in the body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, after removing avarice and sorrow regarding the world; he dwells contemplating the nature of feelings in feelings, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, after removing avarice and sorrow regarding the world; he dwells contemplating the nature of the mind in the mind, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, after removing avarice and sorrow regarding the world; he dwells contemplating the nature of things in various things, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, after removing avarice and sorrow regarding the world.

Thus, Ānanda, a monk lives with himself as an island, himself as a refuge, with no other refuge, with the Teaching as an island, the Teaching as a refuge, with no other refuge. For whoever, Ānanda, whether at present or after my passing, lives with himself as an island, himself as a refuge, with no other refuge, with the Teaching as an island, the Teaching as a refuge, with no other refuge, those monks of mine, Ānanda, will go from darkness to the highest—whoever likes the training.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/dn16

if your teacher is actually teaching the dhamma, their knowledge comes from the suttas
how to know if a teacher is teaching dhamma: viewtopic.php?p=261318#p261318

[DooDoot]

The Teaching has been taught by me, Ānanda, without having made a distinction between esoteric and exoteric, for the Realised One there is nothing, Ānanda, of a closed teacher’s fist in regard to the Teaching.

Therefore, Ānanda, live with yourself as an island, yourself as a refuge, with no other refuge, with the Teaching as an island, the Teaching as a refuge, with no other refuge. And how, Ānanda, does a monk live with himself as an island, himself as a refuge, with no other refuge, with the Teaching as an island, the Teaching as a refuge, with no other refuge?

Maybe. But this still may not resolve the problem of different views about the suttas & the probability of unauthentic suttas that teach a different message.

[Dhammarakkhito]

The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

("And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?...) https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html (how to meditate)

(how to meditate, continued) https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .amar.html loving-kindness
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html mindfulness of breath
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html mindfulness of death
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html ^ ^
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html contemplation of dualities
www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/10/an10-025.html kasiṇa
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .agku.html walking
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html two kinds of thinking
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .soma.html removal of distracting thoughts

[Dhammarakkhito]

authenticity: does it lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation? if so, it is dhamma

[DooDoot]

authenticity: does it lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation? if so, it is dhamma

[Mr Man]

To those who think we cannot rely on individual interpretation: If we cannot trust our understanding of the suttas, the actual word of the Buddha himself, how can we trust our understanding of a teacher explaining from those suttas, let alone the teacher themself?

This seems to be a self-defeating argument as without a doubt there is chance for a teacher to be wrong - not so with the suttas.

Hi dylanj
But if we do read the sutta and other parts of the canon isn't it the case that the Buddha taught a system which involved relationships? Monastic to their teachers and other monastics. Laity to monastics. Association with the wise, spiritual friends etc.

A teacher can give you a hand when you need a hand and give you a prod when you need a prod.