In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Circle5
Posts: 891
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:13 am

Have people simply missed Buddha response in that sutta ? "IF I were to answer that there is no self, that wanderer would have got more bewildered and said - Does this self of mine that used to exist, now not exist ?"

This is of course consisted with the other 10.000 pages of sutta pitakka: Buddha position is that there never was a self to begin with. If he was to answer in that case, the wanderer would have understood that there used to be a self that now is no more.

For those that claim there might be a self, then please tell me what is this self made of ? If a computer does not have a self, but you have a self, then what is this self made out ? How do I know it is not an imaginary thing like the spaggete monster ? How would you feel if I kept writing on the forum that "there is this spaggete monster" but never say anything about him or try to make my point in any way ?

Imagine there is a bushman seeing a car for the first time. He will naturally believe it is pushed by a spirit. Maybe it is an elephant spirit, or maybe it is a tiger spirit since the car is fast, etc. Then, a mechanic will show him that there actually is no spirit, that there is just the engine and that is all there is. Just the car and that's it, no spirit that he supposed existed.

Things work the same with nonexistence of a self. You need to show how the being works, how the aggregates work, etc. untill one understands, just like the bushman, that this is all there is, no mysterious self behind it.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:29 am

Circle5 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:13 am
Have people simply missed Buddha response in that sutta ? "IF I were to answer that there is no self, that wanderer would have got more bewildered and said - Does this self of mine that used to exist, now not exist ?"

This is of course consistent with the other 10.000 pages of sutta pitakka: Buddha position is that there never was a self to begin with. If he was to answer in that case, the wanderer would have understood that there used to be a self that now is no more.
:bow:
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

When (ignorantly) recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.79

Dinsdale
Posts: 5868
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:50 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:42 am
Suñña Sutta says the world is empty or void of self. This cannot be said anymore clearly than that. :roll:
Yes, and as is explained by the sutta, "the world" in this context refers to the six sense bases and their objects. It is the same definition of "the world" which is used for "the all" in the Sabba Sutta.
:thumbsup:

Looking at the Sabba and Sunna suttas together, it is very difficult to argue for the existence of a self in "the all".

PS Is Nibbana included in "the all"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20042
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:13 am

Greetings,
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:41 am
PS Is Nibbana included in "the all"?
Thanissaro gives an explanation of this matter at the end of his translation at Access To Insight.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:18 pm

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1

MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media.

Dinsdale
Posts: 5868
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:37 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:13 am
Greetings,
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:41 am
PS Is Nibbana included in "the all"?
Thanissaro gives an explanation of this matter at the end of his translation at Access To Insight.
I remember it as being rather inconclusive.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
Posts: 5868
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:42 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:18 pm
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1

MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media.
Interesting, but I don't see any support here for the idea that viññanam anidassanam is a self, or for the idea that Nibbana is a self. And of course there is "sabbe dhamma anatta".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:46 pm

Nirvana isn't a self, nor is it annihilation.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2105
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Zom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:57 pm

Nirvana isn't a self, nor is it annihilation.
nor is it annihilation [of self]. 8-)

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:03 pm

Nirvana is described as everlasting.

Also the truth is very subtle and difficult.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11710
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by DNS » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:08 pm

Perhaps the best argument that could be made that there is a self (from Buddhist pov) would be how could there be rebirth, kamma and kamma-vipaka without a self to receive kamma, vipaka, rebirth, metta, etc? My explanation is something like this:

There is no self; yet there is continuation of some sort. Otherwise there could be no kamma, no fruits of kamma and no rebirth. There is a transmission, a transfer, a continuation, but it need not be a soul or self, certainly nothing material.

Similar to the ship named Theseus that has its parts changed out as they deteriorate and new parts added, eventually all the parts have been changed and there are no original parts to that ship. Is it still the same ship? No, but there was continuation of sorts in a series and Theseus keeps the same name to represent that series and continuation.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20042
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:46 pm

Greetings,
DNS wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:08 pm
Similar to the ship named Theseus that has its parts changed out as they deteriorate and new parts added, eventually all the parts have been changed and there are no original parts to that ship. Is it still the same ship? No, but there was continuation of sorts in a series and Theseus keeps the same name to represent that series and continuation.
Sounds like AC/DC.

:twisted:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:54 pm

Consciousness without feature isn't Nibbana.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:03 am

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around


That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Kevatta the householder delighted in the Blessed One's words.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:04 am

It was not said by the Blessed One consciousness without feature is Nibbana. Gratified Kevatta, the householder, did not attain stream-entry, let alone Nibbana.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 85 guests