In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Circle5
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:13 am

Have people simply missed Buddha response in that sutta ? "IF I were to answer that there is no self, that wanderer would have got more bewildered and said - Does this self of mine that used to exist, now not exist ?"

This is of course consisted with the other 10.000 pages of sutta pitakka: Buddha position is that there never was a self to begin with. If he was to answer in that case, the wanderer would have understood that there used to be a self that now is no more.

For those that claim there might be a self, then please tell me what is this self made of ? If a computer does not have a self, but you have a self, then what is this self made out ? How do I know it is not an imaginary thing like the spaggete monster ? How would you feel if I kept writing on the forum that "there is this spaggete monster" but never say anything about him or try to make my point in any way ?

Imagine there is a bushman seeing a car for the first time. He will naturally believe it is pushed by a spirit. Maybe it is an elephant spirit, or maybe it is a tiger spirit since the car is fast, etc. Then, a mechanic will show him that there actually is no spirit, that there is just the engine and that is all there is. Just the car and that's it, no spirit that he supposed existed.

Things work the same with nonexistence of a self. You need to show how the being works, how the aggregates work, etc. untill one understands, just like the bushman, that this is all there is, no mysterious self behind it.

DooDoot
Posts: 1144
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:29 am

Circle5 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:13 am
Have people simply missed Buddha response in that sutta ? "IF I were to answer that there is no self, that wanderer would have got more bewildered and said - Does this self of mine that used to exist, now not exist ?"

This is of course consistent with the other 10.000 pages of sutta pitakka: Buddha position is that there never was a self to begin with. If he was to answer in that case, the wanderer would have understood that there used to be a self that now is no more.
:bow:
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

When (ignorantly) recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.79

Dinsdale
Posts: 5349
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:50 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:42 am
Suñña Sutta says the world is empty or void of self. This cannot be said anymore clearly than that. :roll:
Yes, and as is explained by the sutta, "the world" in this context refers to the six sense bases and their objects. It is the same definition of "the world" which is used for "the all" in the Sabba Sutta.
:thumbsup:

Looking at the Sabba and Sunna suttas together, it is very difficult to argue for the existence of a self in "the all".

PS Is Nibbana included in "the all"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:13 am

Greetings,
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:41 am
PS Is Nibbana included in "the all"?
Thanissaro gives an explanation of this matter at the end of his translation at Access To Insight.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:18 pm

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1

MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media.

Dinsdale
Posts: 5349
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:37 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:13 am
Greetings,
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:41 am
PS Is Nibbana included in "the all"?
Thanissaro gives an explanation of this matter at the end of his translation at Access To Insight.
I remember it as being rather inconclusive.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
Posts: 5349
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:42 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:18 pm
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1

MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media.
Interesting, but I don't see any support here for the idea that viññanam anidassanam is a self, or for the idea that Nibbana is a self. And of course there is "sabbe dhamma anatta".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:46 pm

Nirvana isn't a self, nor is it annihilation.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1907
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Zom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:57 pm

Nirvana isn't a self, nor is it annihilation.
nor is it annihilation [of self]. 8-)

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:03 pm

Nirvana is described as everlasting.

Also the truth is very subtle and difficult.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11174
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by DNS » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:08 pm

Perhaps the best argument that could be made that there is a self (from Buddhist pov) would be how could there be rebirth, kamma and kamma-vipaka without a self to receive kamma, vipaka, rebirth, metta, etc? My explanation is something like this:

There is no self; yet there is continuation of some sort. Otherwise there could be no kamma, no fruits of kamma and no rebirth. There is a transmission, a transfer, a continuation, but it need not be a soul or self, certainly nothing material.

Similar to the ship named Theseus that has its parts changed out as they deteriorate and new parts added, eventually all the parts have been changed and there are no original parts to that ship. Is it still the same ship? No, but there was continuation of sorts in a series and Theseus keeps the same name to represent that series and continuation.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:46 pm

Greetings,
DNS wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:08 pm
Similar to the ship named Theseus that has its parts changed out as they deteriorate and new parts added, eventually all the parts have been changed and there are no original parts to that ship. Is it still the same ship? No, but there was continuation of sorts in a series and Theseus keeps the same name to represent that series and continuation.
Sounds like AC/DC.

:twisted:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

DooDoot
Posts: 1144
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:54 pm

Consciousness without feature isn't Nibbana.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:03 am

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around


That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Kevatta the householder delighted in the Blessed One's words.

DooDoot
Posts: 1144
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:04 am

It was not said by the Blessed One consciousness without feature is Nibbana. Gratified Kevatta, the householder, did not attain stream-entry, let alone Nibbana.

Circle5
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:16 pm

That "consciousness luminous all around" is from some poetic verses from DN, a book that was meant for propaganda that has 2/3 of it corrupted.

Buddha said dozens of times that there is no consciousness in nibbana. Take for example this:
At Savatthi. Sitting to one side, a monk said to the Blessed One, "Lord, is there any form that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity? Is there any feeling... any perception... Are there any fabrications... Is there any consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity?"

[...]

"There isn't even this much consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity. If there were even this much consciousness that was constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that would stay just as it is as long as eternity, then this living of the holy life for the right ending of suffering & stress would not be discerned. But because there isn't even this much consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity, this living of the holy life for the right ending of suffering & stress is discerned.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1907
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:18 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:46 pm
Greetings,
DNS wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:08 pm
Similar to the ship named Theseus that has its parts changed out as they deteriorate and new parts added, eventually all the parts have been changed and there are no original parts to that ship. Is it still the same ship? No, but there was continuation of sorts in a series and Theseus keeps the same name to represent that series and continuation.
Sounds like AC/DC.

:twisted:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Image

:D

justindesilva
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by justindesilva » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:45 pm

dylanj wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:37 pm
Anyway yes, I think there is not a problem with this sutta & the subtle difference is right. "All phenomena are not-self", "The world is empty of a self & anything pertaining to a self" are correct standpoints, if they can even be called that.
a book by Nyanathiloka tero " Guide through Abidamma pitaka" writes:
There are three teachers where the first proclaims true and real self iñ this visible existence and a true and real self in future world.
second teacher proclaims true and real self exist in this visible existence but does not proclaim in future world.
3rd teacher neither proclaims in this visible existence or not true and real self in future life.
3rd one who neither proclaims as true and a real self in this visible existence nor in future life is the fully enlightened one.
Here the mention of a visible existence means the external world as sammuti sacca. The self or non self is a mental phenomena as per paticca samuppada. If we take this bidy a conditioned pancaskanda as one solid feature then the notion of self there is in it. But that the being exists with pancendriya and vingnana acting as five different indriyas or five bundles makes a self non existent. A man who wish to marry a woman feel both himself and the woman as two selves. But both being subject to momentarily changing particles as of anitya does not suggest that they are permanent selves. Hence it is our mind subject to ignorance that suggest a self or non self. With the idea that our body is a permanent mass of flesh as seen with our mind the idea of a self is reasonably true in spite of its vagueness.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:25 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:16 pm
Buddha said dozens of times that there is no consciousness in nibbana.

The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated,
perishes, and does not exist after death.

Yamaka Sutta

dharmacorps
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:00 pm

Ajahn Geoff related a story that is related to this discussion: Ajahn Maha Boowa was asked about a cult in Thailand that existed some years ago that taught nibbana is the "true self", once you get there, that is what is truly "you". It was very controversial and had many Buddhists upset. Ajahn Maha Boowa had sort of avoiding answering directly.

People kept asking Ajahn Maha Boowa about the cult and whether "Nibbana is the true self" and his answer after much anticipation was simply to say "nibbana is nibbana". People took that at the time to mean that putting any conceptualization into it nibbana is not appropriate.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dharmacorps and 80 guests