In Ananda Sutta, the Buddha seems to state that both "there is a self" and "there is no self" are Wrong Views.

[DNS]

Perhaps the best argument that could be made that there is a self (from Buddhist pov) would be how could there be rebirth, kamma and kamma-vipaka without a self to receive kamma, vipaka, rebirth, metta, etc? My explanation is something like this:

There is no self; yet there is continuation of some sort. Otherwise there could be no kamma, no fruits of kamma and no rebirth. There is a transmission, a transfer, a continuation, but it need not be a soul or self, certainly nothing material.

Similar to the ship named Theseus that has its parts changed out as they deteriorate and new parts added, eventually all the parts have been changed and there are no original parts to that ship. Is it still the same ship? No, but there was continuation of sorts in a series and Theseus keeps the same name to represent that series and continuation.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Similar to the ship named Theseus that has its parts changed out as they deteriorate and new parts added, eventually all the parts have been changed and there are no original parts to that ship. Is it still the same ship? No, but there was continuation of sorts in a series and Theseus keeps the same name to represent that series and continuation.

Sounds like AC/DC.



Metta,
Paul.

[DooDoot]

Consciousness without feature isn't Nibbana.

[cappuccino]

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Kevatta the householder delighted in the Blessed One's words.

[DooDoot]

It was not said by the Blessed One consciousness without feature is Nibbana. Gratified Kevatta, the householder, did not attain stream-entry, let alone Nibbana.

[Circle5]

That "consciousness luminous all around" is from some poetic verses from DN, a book that was meant for propaganda that has 2/3 of it corrupted.

Buddha said dozens of times that there is no consciousness in nibbana. Take for example this:

At Savatthi. Sitting to one side, a monk said to the Blessed One, "Lord, is there any form that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity? Is there any feeling... any perception... Are there any fabrications... Is there any consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity?"

[...]

"There isn't even this much consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity. If there were even this much consciousness that was constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that would stay just as it is as long as eternity, then this living of the holy life for the right ending of suffering & stress would not be discerned. But because there isn't even this much consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity, this living of the holy life for the right ending of suffering & stress is discerned.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Zom]

Greetings,

Similar to the ship named Theseus that has its parts changed out as they deteriorate and new parts added, eventually all the parts have been changed and there are no original parts to that ship. Is it still the same ship? No, but there was continuation of sorts in a series and Theseus keeps the same name to represent that series and continuation.

Sounds like AC/DC.



Metta,
Paul.

[justindesilva]

Anyway yes, I think there is not a problem with this sutta & the subtle difference is right. "All phenomena are not-self", "The world is empty of a self & anything pertaining to a self" are correct standpoints, if they can even be called that.

a book by Nyanathiloka tero " Guide through Abidamma pitaka" writes:
There are three teachers where the first proclaims true and real self iñ this visible existence and a true and real self in future world.
second teacher proclaims true and real self exist in this visible existence but does not proclaim in future world.
3rd teacher neither proclaims in this visible existence or not true and real self in future life.
3rd one who neither proclaims as true and a real self in this visible existence nor in future life is the fully enlightened one.
Here the mention of a visible existence means the external world as sammuti sacca. The self or non self is a mental phenomena as per paticca samuppada. If we take this bidy a conditioned pancaskanda as one solid feature then the notion of self there is in it. But that the being exists with pancendriya and vingnana acting as five different indriyas or five bundles makes a self non existent. A man who wish to marry a woman feel both himself and the woman as two selves. But both being subject to momentarily changing particles as of anitya does not suggest that they are permanent selves. Hence it is our mind subject to ignorance that suggest a self or non self. With the idea that our body is a permanent mass of flesh as seen with our mind the idea of a self is reasonably true in spite of its vagueness.

[cappuccino]

Buddha said dozens of times that there is no consciousness in nibbana.

The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated,
perishes, and does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta

[dharmacorps]

Ajahn Geoff related a story that is related to this discussion: Ajahn Maha Boowa was asked about a cult in Thailand that existed some years ago that taught nibbana is the "true self", once you get there, that is what is truly "you". It was very controversial and had many Buddhists upset. Ajahn Maha Boowa had sort of avoiding answering directly.

People kept asking Ajahn Maha Boowa about the cult and whether "Nibbana is the true self" and his answer after much anticipation was simply to say "nibbana is nibbana". People took that at the time to mean that putting any conceptualization into it nibbana is not appropriate.

[Circle5]

Buddha said dozens of times that there is no consciousness in nibbana.

The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated,
perishes, and does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta

Do you identify the saint as consciousness ? Is there any saint to be found within consciousness ?

[cappuccino]

though not self, consciousness isn't annihilated

because…

nirvana is described as everlasting!

[Circle5]

though not self, consciousness isn't annihilated

because…

nirvana is described as everlasting!

Imagine there is a fire. This fire is made out of chemichals, is fueled by oxigen, by wood, etc. Now one day this fire is extinguished. Can you claim "there is still this cemical that will be everlasting" ? Nope, there is nothing left. All the things that made up the fire exist no more.

In the same way, when the 5 aggregates that make up a being do not receive any more fuel (craving) they will eventually dissappear just like the fire. (that is actually a simile given by the Buddha). How can one claim there is still consciousness, there is still form, etc. when the aggregates have broken down and disappeared "without reminder" ?

[Spiny Norman]

Buddha said dozens of times that there is no consciousness in nibbana. Take for example this:

Though presumably consciousness is required to experience Nibbana?

[Zom]

Though presumably consciousness is required to experience Nibbana?

Presumably <--

Because, as Ven. Brahmali noticed, if we understand "nibbana" as "something" (unworldly), something which is not mental and bodily, then we need 7th type of consiousness to experience it. However, Buddha mentioned only 6 types. What is more, if "nibbana" is something "permanent", then both contact and consiousness to experience it also must be permanent, but Buddha denied that there is permanent contact or consiousness. This is why the best, safest, easiest explanation is that nibbana is either just a clean arahant's mind (as Ven. Sariputta explained in one sutta), or, if we speak about final nibbana - it is just the situation of cessastion of all aggregates, [arahant's] mind included. This situation can be temporarily experienced [by him] upon reaching "nirodha samapatti" meditative state and reflected upon only after emerging from it.