Sotapanna

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Nwad
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Nwad » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:36 am

Circle5 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:45 am
Sure he is buddhist, but that doesn't mean he is interested in what the historical Buddha taught. You might be surprised but very few monks actually read the suttas. This is an activity mainly popular in the west. In asia, people just don't care about the historical Buddha, even though the religion is named after him. They didn't even bothered to translate the 4 nikayas into their local languages. The americans translated them first in the 60s if I am not mistaken.

So you should not be surprised if you browse the internet and read the suttas and find out many things are different in there from what the big majority of teachers these days teach. Only reasonable thing to do is to read them by yourself and have the Buddha as your teacher instead of other people.
Ajhan Sucitto is an english monk ex-abbot of Cittaviveka monastry in England, he is a monk for 40 years, and you think that he dont know what he is teaching?
I think its is dangerous activity to spread a doubts about Sangha...

Actualy i read all Suttanta and i dont see anything that goes counter Bouddha's teachink in what was said in that article. If you have sutta that shows that this article is wrong, show it. Or if you understand the experiance that is described, tell us why you think that it is not a Dhamma...

I think that we speak about different things. I ask if that what describes Ajhan Sucitto is a fruit of Sotappana, and you tell me that is not the good way to attain it... But i never said about the path, only about experiance of fruit. Ajhan Sucitto, teaches about Eightfold path and finishes his exposition by this paragraph that i quoted, i dont understand what is wrong in that teaching and in the description of "cessation of suffering"...

Anyway its no metter, our debate is sensless because we speak about different things. It happens...

Metta ♡

Saengnapha
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:54 am

DNS wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:26 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:10 am
Theoretically, the 5 Hindrances are overcome for one to be Sotapanna.
I believe you are confusing nivarana (5 hindrances to meditation) with the 10 hindrances (fetters) to awakening. The sotapanna has eradicated the first 3 hindrances/fetters to awakening:

The belief in a permanent personality, ego (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
Doubt, extreme skepticism (vicikicchā)
Attachment to rites, rituals, and ceremonies (sīlabbata-parāmāso)
No, I didn't mix up the 5 Hindrances with the 10 Fetters. I mixed up the removal of the 5 Hindrances with Sotapanna. Actually removal of the 5 hindrances would be the 4th jhana, IIRC. Awakening is another matter, although you are correct about removal of the first 3 fetters for Sotapanna level.

Thanks for the correction.

Saengnapha
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:59 am

Circle5 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:18 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:10 am

Theoretically, the 5 Hindrances are overcome for one to be Sotapanna. Not everyone will overcome them in the same way due to their individual makeup. The path is laid out in the suttas, but what is met on this path will vary accordingly with the walker. Many other traditions lay out their own path that seems to yield the same outcome if one can open their mind. How we overcome these 5 Hindrances varies even in Buddhism. Metta practice is also another way within Theravada.

Things were a lot different 2500 years ago than they are today. People were not as distracted and challenged in their lives as they are now. It would seem much harder today to be a practitioner of any tradition let alone a stream enterer. Conditions change. Nothing remains the same.
What makes you think that attaining stream entry requires to overcome the hidrances ? We are speaking about stream entry here, not about arahantship.

There was even a serial killer that attained stream entry in the suttas in just a couple of days, using the same method every body else in the suttas used to attain stream entry. How could he overcome the hidrances in a couple of days if you claim overcoming the hidrances is what makes one a stream enterer ? How come all people in the suttas do it in a very short time and use a very different method than overcoming the hidrances ? There were many ascetics at that time. How come there were so many ascetics that clearly overcome the hidrancess to a significant degree, but none achieved stream entry ? (unless of course using the method all other people in the suttas used, in which case they becomed arahants on the stop, unlike normal people who only attained stream entry)
Overcoming 5 Hindrances leads to 4th jhana, equanimity, not Arahantship.

Circle5
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:17 pm

Nwad wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:36 am
Ajhan Sucitto is an english monk ex-abbot of Cittaviveka monastry in England, he is a monk for 40 years, and you think that he dont know what he is teaching?
I think its is dangerous activity to spread a doubts about Sangha...

Actualy i read all Suttanta and i dont see anything that goes counter Bouddha's teachink in what was said in that article. If you have sutta that shows that this article is wrong, show it. Or if you understand the experiance that is described, tell us why you think that it is not a Dhamma...

I think that we speak about different things. I ask if that what describes Ajhan Sucitto is a fruit of Sotappana, and you tell me that is not the good way to attain it... But i never said about the path, only about experiance of fruit. Ajhan Sucitto, teaches about Eightfold path and finishes his exposition by this paragraph that i quoted, i dont understand what is wrong in that teaching and in the description of "cessation of suffering"...

Anyway its no metter, our debate is sensless because we speak about different things. It happens...

Metta ♡
I've read your message again. Indeed he did not claim that has anything to do with stream entry, it was you that asked that. In my opinion, any person can experience what he describes there, no matter if he is a stream enterer or not. Stream entry has to do with right view and understanding of the dhamma, not with meditation. At least that's what we see in the suttas.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Crazy cloud » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:50 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:17 pm
Stream entry has to do with right view and understanding of the dhamma, not with meditation. At least that's what we see in the suttas.
I thought it wasn't enough with mere understanding, and that stream entry happens when understanding has been realized!?

:)
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching the pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

thepea
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:29 pm

I have been taught that when one has liberated all beings within to the level that rebirth in the 4 lower fields is impossible then and only then is this individual fit to transcend mind and matter and glimpse nibbana.
This glimpse eliminates self view as one can understand ultimate reality vs. Apparent reality and also one will realize that it was the application of 8-fold path that was responsible for this realization and not a rite or ritualistic behaviour. At this stage one is free from rebirth in lower fields and knows the path and know the work necessary to reach the final goal. This individual knows exactly how to work and has no doubt in this teaching.
This individual is not perfected and can break the precepts if their practice is not maintained they can get angry, exhibit jealous behavior, show signs of greed and many other undesirable traits.
Sotapanna is a very reachable stage for lay-person and should not be made into some unreachable stage in today’s day and age.
It would not surprise me if every AT in Goenka organization was sotapanna or higher and most certainly
Every acharia running each centre was at this stage.
In the long courses Goenka is guiding every student to this stage if it has not already occurred. Teachers ask questions to students on old courses to confirm that this stage has been reached or not.

Saengnapha
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:03 am

thepea wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:29 pm
I have been taught that when one has liberated all beings within to the level that rebirth in the 4 lower fields is impossible then and only then is this individual fit to transcend mind and matter and glimpse nibbana.
This glimpse eliminates self view as one can understand ultimate reality vs. Apparent reality and also one will realize that it was the application of 8-fold path that was responsible for this realization and not a rite or ritualistic behaviour. At this stage one is free from rebirth in lower fields and knows the path and know the work necessary to reach the final goal. This individual knows exactly how to work and has no doubt in this teaching.
This individual is not perfected and can break the precepts if their practice is not maintained they can get angry, exhibit jealous behavior, show signs of greed and many other undesirable traits.
Sotapanna is a very reachable stage for lay-person and should not be made into some unreachable stage in today’s day and age.
It would not surprise me if every AT in Goenka organization was sotapanna or higher and most certainly
Every acharia running each centre was at this stage.
In the long courses Goenka is guiding every student to this stage if it has not already occurred. Teachers ask questions to students on old courses to confirm that this stage has been reached or not.
This fixation on stages is an unfortunate development in Buddhism.

thepea
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:20 am

The thing is it is not something to fixate on.
There is a path to the end of suffering and those that have reached the final goal know the way.
Along the way every individual must pass through certain stages or realizations or wisdoms. Like traveling to the market you know you must walk to the set of lights cross the road make a right walk to the church, first street past church make a right pass the beer store and the market should come into view. There is no fixation on each waypoint as you pass them you let them go they are just helpful to follow the path.

Circle5
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:10 pm

thepea wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:29 pm
I have been taught that when one has liberated all beings within to the level that rebirth in the 4 lower fields is impossible then and only then is this individual fit to transcend mind and matter and glimpse nibbana.
This glimpse eliminates self view as one can understand ultimate reality vs. Apparent reality and also one will realize that it was the application of 8-fold path that was responsible for this realization and not a rite or ritualistic behaviour. At this stage one is free from rebirth in lower fields and knows the path and know the work necessary to reach the final goal. This individual knows exactly how to work and has no doubt in this teaching.
This individual is not perfected and can break the precepts if their practice is not maintained they can get angry, exhibit jealous behavior, show signs of greed and many other undesirable traits.
Sotapanna is a very reachable stage for lay-person and should not be made into some unreachable stage in today’s day and age.
It would not surprise me if every AT in Goenka organization was sotapanna or higher and most certainly
Every acharia running each centre was at this stage.
In the long courses Goenka is guiding every student to this stage if it has not already occurred. Teachers ask questions to students on old courses to confirm that this stage has been reached or not.
As I have said before, Goenka[*] ( edited by mod to remove harsh language).

1) Not even Sarriputa was able to tell if someone has reached stream entry or not. Goenka teachers claiming to know who has become a stream enterer or not have of course not read the suttas.
2) One can not reach stream entry without knowing the method through which that is done. We have hundreds of cases of people attaining it in the suttas, all did it through the same method, none did it differently. It is simply impossible to achieve something without knowing how it is achieved.
3) Goenka meditation method has nothing to do with the 16 step Anapanasanti meditation from the suttas. But that doesn't even matter in relation to stream entry since stream entry has nothing to do with meditation.
Last edited by robertk on Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: harsh

thepea
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:02 pm

Hi circle5,

1. I did not claim that Goenka teachers know for certain if individuals have attained levels. What they do is ask questions on the long courses that when answered would indicate that an individual has passed through certain insight knowledges. Goenka s discourses in long courses describe entering Jhanas and what to look for what to ignore it is for certain that this man knew what he was preaching quite well.

2.im quite certain that the technique practiced in Goenka tradition is in perfect alignment with Buddha’s teachings.

3.im not versed in your 16 stage anapasatti meditation method if it also works great!!!
It’s probably the same practice as one progresses in each technique.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:17 pm

It would be interesting to be considered by a "wise enough" mind, but i'm not sure I would regard it more than just another personal opinion.

:)
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching the pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

Saengnapha
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Sotapanna

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:52 am

thepea wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:20 am
The thing is it is not something to fixate on.
There is a path to the end of suffering and those that have reached the final goal know the way.
Along the way every individual must pass through certain stages or realizations or wisdoms. Like traveling to the market you know you must walk to the set of lights cross the road make a right walk to the church, first street past church make a right pass the beer store and the market should come into view. There is no fixation on each waypoint as you pass them you let them go they are just helpful to follow the path.
This is your 'ideal' that you are explaining, not the actual experience that you have. You are conceiving of a path and creating landmarks within it. This is what is called 'the dream of existence'. It has no actual reality, it is a fiction created in our mental landscape. All this is impermanent, without substance. That is the real message of the masters.

thepea
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:12 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:52 am
This is your 'ideal' that you are explaining, not the actual experience that you have. You are conceiving of a path and creating landmarks within it. This is what is called 'the dream of existence'. It has no actual reality, it is a fiction created in our mental landscape. All this is impermanent, without substance. That is the real message of the masters.
Tell that to my children.

Impermanence is only fourth waypoint on the path, It is not the complete message of the masters though.

Saengnapha
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:55 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:12 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:52 am
This is your 'ideal' that you are explaining, not the actual experience that you have. You are conceiving of a path and creating landmarks within it. This is what is called 'the dream of existence'. It has no actual reality, it is a fiction created in our mental landscape. All this is impermanent, without substance. That is the real message of the masters.
Tell that to my children.

Impermanence is only fourth waypoint on the path, It is not the complete message of the masters though.
Give me their mobile numbers and we can have a chat. :D

Circle5
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Circle5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:42 pm

What does Goenka has to say about stream entry ? What does stream entry mean in the Goenka tradition ?

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cappuccino
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:18 pm

the monk who is a learner reflects, 'Is there outside of this [doctrine & discipline] any brahman or contemplative who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One?' And he discerns, 'No, there is no brahman or contemplative outside of this doctrine & discipline who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One.'
Sekha Sutta

thepea
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:28 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:55 pm

Give me their mobile numbers and we can have a chat. :D
They would drive you nuts, no point in you suffering needlessly. :P

thepea
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:32 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:42 pm
What does Goenka has to say about stream entry ? What does stream entry mean in the Goenka tradition ?
Same as what has been discussed here you can google Goenka sotapanna and an article he wrote should pop up.

What does it mean to you and we could compare if there is any discrepancy?

Circle5
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by Circle5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:18 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:32 pm
Circle5 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:42 pm
What does Goenka has to say about stream entry ? What does stream entry mean in the Goenka tradition ?
Same as what has been discussed here you can google Goenka sotapanna and an article he wrote should pop up.

What does it mean to you and we could compare if there is any discrepancy?
I googled but nothing pops up regarding this topic. It's probably because goenka does not post too much info online and holds all the info on the video tapes. And the video tapes can not be found online for free.

thepea
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Re: Sotapanna

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:50 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:18 pm

I googled but nothing pops up regarding this topic. It's probably because goenka does not post too much info online and holds all the info on the video tapes. And the video tapes can not be found online for free.
Sorry I’m on my iPhone and don’t know how to cut
And paste the article it’s there and it’s free.
Videos of 10 day courses are also online free but the longer courses do not have video just audio but they are not available online.

Again what is your definition? and I’m happy to go over any differences of opinion.

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