Sotapanna

[Circle5]

Theoretically, the 5 Hindrances are overcome for one to be Sotapanna. Not everyone will overcome them in the same way due to their individual makeup. The path is laid out in the suttas, but what is met on this path will vary accordingly with the walker. Many other traditions lay out their own path that seems to yield the same outcome if one can open their mind. How we overcome these 5 Hindrances varies even in Buddhism. Metta practice is also another way within Theravada.

Things were a lot different 2500 years ago than they are today. People were not as distracted and challenged in their lives as they are now. It would seem much harder today to be a practitioner of any tradition let alone a stream enterer. Conditions change. Nothing remains the same.

What makes you think that attaining stream entry requires to overcome the hidrances ? We are speaking about stream entry here, not about arahantship.

There was even a serial killer that attained stream entry in the suttas in just a couple of days, using the same method every body else in the suttas used to attain stream entry. How could he overcome the hidrances in a couple of days if you claim overcoming the hidrances is what makes one a stream enterer ? How come all people in the suttas do it in a very short time and use a very different method than overcoming the hidrances ? There were many ascetics at that time. How come there were so many ascetics that clearly overcome the hidrancess to a significant degree, but none achieved stream entry ? (unless of course using the method all other people in the suttas used, in which case they becomed arahants on the stop, unlike normal people who only attained stream entry)

[robertk]

There was even a serial killer that attained stream entry in the suttas in just a couple of days,

If you mean Angulimala, he attained after a short talk by the Buddha -(i.e. in minutes, not days)

[DNS]

Theoretically, the 5 Hindrances are overcome for one to be Sotapanna.

I believe you are confusing nivarana (5 hindrances to meditation) with the 10 hindrances (fetters) to awakening. The sotapanna has eradicated the first 3 hindrances/fetters to awakening:

The belief in a permanent personality, ego (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
Doubt, extreme skepticism (vicikicchā)
Attachment to rites, rituals, and ceremonies (sīlabbata-parāmāso)

[Alīno]

There are hundreds of cases of people attaining stream entry in the suttas. All did it in the same way, not a single one of them did it differently. There are even cases where they explain how they did it.

If you can find a single instance out of 10.000 pag of suttas where somebody attains stream entry in the way Ajan Sucitto described it, please post that sutta.

You dont answered my question...

[Circle5]

There are hundreds of cases of people attaining stream entry in the suttas. All did it in the same way, not a single one of them did it differently. There are even cases where they explain how they did it.

If you can find a single instance out of 10.000 pag of suttas where somebody attains stream entry in the way Ajan Sucitto described it, please post that sutta.

You dont answered my question...

Sure he is buddhist, but that doesn't mean he is interested in what the historical Buddha taught. You might be surprised but very few monks actually read the suttas. This is an activity mainly popular in the west. In asia, people just don't care about the historical Buddha, even though the religion is named after him. They didn't even bothered to translate the 4 nikayas into their local languages. The americans translated them first in the 60s if I am not mistaken.

So you should not be surprised if you browse the internet and read the suttas and find out many things are different in there from what the big majority of teachers these days teach. Only reasonable thing to do is to read them by yourself and have the Buddha as your teacher instead of other people.

"That's the way it is, Kassapa. When beings are degenerating and the true Dhamma is disappearing, there are more training rules and yet fewer monks established in final gnosis. There is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world. Just as there is no disappearance of gold as long as a counterfeit of gold has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of gold when a counterfeit of gold has arisen in the world, in the same way there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world.[1]

"It's not the earth property that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's not the water property... the fire property... the wind property that makes the true Dhamma disappear.[2] It's worthless people who arise right here [within the Sangha] who make the true Dhamma disappear. The true Dhamma doesn't disappear the way a boat sinks all at once.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Alīno]

Sure he is buddhist, but that doesn't mean he is interested in what the historical Buddha taught. You might be surprised but very few monks actually read the suttas. This is an activity mainly popular in the west. In asia, people just don't care about the historical Buddha, even though the religion is named after him. They didn't even bothered to translate the 4 nikayas into their local languages. The americans translated them first in the 60s if I am not mistaken.

So you should not be surprised if you browse the internet and read the suttas and find out many things are different in there from what the big majority of teachers these days teach. Only reasonable thing to do is to read them by yourself and have the Buddha as your teacher instead of other people.

Ajhan Sucitto is an english monk ex-abbot of Cittaviveka monastry in England, he is a monk for 40 years, and you think that he dont know what he is teaching?
I think its is dangerous activity to spread a doubts about Sangha...

Actualy i read all Suttanta and i dont see anything that goes counter Bouddha's teachink in what was said in that article. If you have sutta that shows that this article is wrong, show it. Or if you understand the experiance that is described, tell us why you think that it is not a Dhamma...

I think that we speak about different things. I ask if that what describes Ajhan Sucitto is a fruit of Sotappana, and you tell me that is not the good way to attain it... But i never said about the path, only about experiance of fruit. Ajhan Sucitto, teaches about Eightfold path and finishes his exposition by this paragraph that i quoted, i dont understand what is wrong in that teaching and in the description of "cessation of suffering"...

Anyway its no metter, our debate is sensless because we speak about different things. It happens...

Metta ♡

[Saengnapha]

Theoretically, the 5 Hindrances are overcome for one to be Sotapanna.

I believe you are confusing nivarana (5 hindrances to meditation) with the 10 hindrances (fetters) to awakening. The sotapanna has eradicated the first 3 hindrances/fetters to awakening:

The belief in a permanent personality, ego (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
Doubt, extreme skepticism (vicikicchā)
Attachment to rites, rituals, and ceremonies (sīlabbata-parāmāso)

No, I didn't mix up the 5 Hindrances with the 10 Fetters. I mixed up the removal of the 5 Hindrances with Sotapanna. Actually removal of the 5 hindrances would be the 4th jhana, IIRC. Awakening is another matter, although you are correct about removal of the first 3 fetters for Sotapanna level.

Thanks for the correction.

[Saengnapha]

Theoretically, the 5 Hindrances are overcome for one to be Sotapanna. Not everyone will overcome them in the same way due to their individual makeup. The path is laid out in the suttas, but what is met on this path will vary accordingly with the walker. Many other traditions lay out their own path that seems to yield the same outcome if one can open their mind. How we overcome these 5 Hindrances varies even in Buddhism. Metta practice is also another way within Theravada.

Things were a lot different 2500 years ago than they are today. People were not as distracted and challenged in their lives as they are now. It would seem much harder today to be a practitioner of any tradition let alone a stream enterer. Conditions change. Nothing remains the same.

What makes you think that attaining stream entry requires to overcome the hidrances ? We are speaking about stream entry here, not about arahantship.

There was even a serial killer that attained stream entry in the suttas in just a couple of days, using the same method every body else in the suttas used to attain stream entry. How could he overcome the hidrances in a couple of days if you claim overcoming the hidrances is what makes one a stream enterer ? How come all people in the suttas do it in a very short time and use a very different method than overcoming the hidrances ? There were many ascetics at that time. How come there were so many ascetics that clearly overcome the hidrancess to a significant degree, but none achieved stream entry ? (unless of course using the method all other people in the suttas used, in which case they becomed arahants on the stop, unlike normal people who only attained stream entry)

Overcoming 5 Hindrances leads to 4th jhana, equanimity, not Arahantship.

[Circle5]

Ajhan Sucitto is an english monk ex-abbot of Cittaviveka monastry in England, he is a monk for 40 years, and you think that he dont know what he is teaching?
I think its is dangerous activity to spread a doubts about Sangha...

Actualy i read all Suttanta and i dont see anything that goes counter Bouddha's teachink in what was said in that article. If you have sutta that shows that this article is wrong, show it. Or if you understand the experiance that is described, tell us why you think that it is not a Dhamma...

I think that we speak about different things. I ask if that what describes Ajhan Sucitto is a fruit of Sotappana, and you tell me that is not the good way to attain it... But i never said about the path, only about experiance of fruit. Ajhan Sucitto, teaches about Eightfold path and finishes his exposition by this paragraph that i quoted, i dont understand what is wrong in that teaching and in the description of "cessation of suffering"...

Anyway its no metter, our debate is sensless because we speak about different things. It happens...

Metta ♡

I've read your message again. Indeed he did not claim that has anything to do with stream entry, it was you that asked that. In my opinion, any person can experience what he describes there, no matter if he is a stream enterer or not. Stream entry has to do with right view and understanding of the dhamma, not with meditation. At least that's what we see in the suttas.

[Crazy cloud]

Stream entry has to do with right view and understanding of the dhamma, not with meditation. At least that's what we see in the suttas.

I thought it wasn't enough with mere understanding, and that stream entry happens when understanding has been realized!?

[thepea]

I have been taught that when one has liberated all beings within to the level that rebirth in the 4 lower fields is impossible then and only then is this individual fit to transcend mind and matter and glimpse nibbana.
This glimpse eliminates self view as one can understand ultimate reality vs. Apparent reality and also one will realize that it was the application of 8-fold path that was responsible for this realization and not a rite or ritualistic behaviour. At this stage one is free from rebirth in lower fields and knows the path and know the work necessary to reach the final goal. This individual knows exactly how to work and has no doubt in this teaching.
This individual is not perfected and can break the precepts if their practice is not maintained they can get angry, exhibit jealous behavior, show signs of greed and many other undesirable traits.
Sotapanna is a very reachable stage for lay-person and should not be made into some unreachable stage in today’s day and age.
It would not surprise me if every AT in Goenka organization was sotapanna or higher and most certainly
Every acharia running each centre was at this stage.
In the long courses Goenka is guiding every student to this stage if it has not already occurred. Teachers ask questions to students on old courses to confirm that this stage has been reached or not.

[Saengnapha]

I have been taught that when one has liberated all beings within to the level that rebirth in the 4 lower fields is impossible then and only then is this individual fit to transcend mind and matter and glimpse nibbana.
This glimpse eliminates self view as one can understand ultimate reality vs. Apparent reality and also one will realize that it was the application of 8-fold path that was responsible for this realization and not a rite or ritualistic behaviour. At this stage one is free from rebirth in lower fields and knows the path and know the work necessary to reach the final goal. This individual knows exactly how to work and has no doubt in this teaching.
This individual is not perfected and can break the precepts if their practice is not maintained they can get angry, exhibit jealous behavior, show signs of greed and many other undesirable traits.
Sotapanna is a very reachable stage for lay-person and should not be made into some unreachable stage in today’s day and age.
It would not surprise me if every AT in Goenka organization was sotapanna or higher and most certainly
Every acharia running each centre was at this stage.
In the long courses Goenka is guiding every student to this stage if it has not already occurred. Teachers ask questions to students on old courses to confirm that this stage has been reached or not.

This fixation on stages is an unfortunate development in Buddhism.

[thepea]

The thing is it is not something to fixate on.
There is a path to the end of suffering and those that have reached the final goal know the way.
Along the way every individual must pass through certain stages or realizations or wisdoms. Like traveling to the market you know you must walk to the set of lights cross the road make a right walk to the church, first street past church make a right pass the beer store and the market should come into view. There is no fixation on each waypoint as you pass them you let them go they are just helpful to follow the path.

[Circle5]

I have been taught that when one has liberated all beings within to the level that rebirth in the 4 lower fields is impossible then and only then is this individual fit to transcend mind and matter and glimpse nibbana.
This glimpse eliminates self view as one can understand ultimate reality vs. Apparent reality and also one will realize that it was the application of 8-fold path that was responsible for this realization and not a rite or ritualistic behaviour. At this stage one is free from rebirth in lower fields and knows the path and know the work necessary to reach the final goal. This individual knows exactly how to work and has no doubt in this teaching.
This individual is not perfected and can break the precepts if their practice is not maintained they can get angry, exhibit jealous behavior, show signs of greed and many other undesirable traits.
Sotapanna is a very reachable stage for lay-person and should not be made into some unreachable stage in today’s day and age.
It would not surprise me if every AT in Goenka organization was sotapanna or higher and most certainly
Every acharia running each centre was at this stage.
In the long courses Goenka is guiding every student to this stage if it has not already occurred. Teachers ask questions to students on old courses to confirm that this stage has been reached or not.

As I have said before, Goenka[*] ( edited by mod to remove harsh language).

1) Not even Sarriputa was able to tell if someone has reached stream entry or not. Goenka teachers claiming to know who has become a stream enterer or not have of course not read the suttas.
2) One can not reach stream entry without knowing the method through which that is done. We have hundreds of cases of people attaining it in the suttas, all did it through the same method, none did it differently. It is simply impossible to achieve something without knowing how it is achieved.
3) Goenka meditation method has nothing to do with the 16 step Anapanasanti meditation from the suttas. But that doesn't even matter in relation to stream entry since stream entry has nothing to do with meditation.

[thepea]

Hi circle5,

1. I did not claim that Goenka teachers know for certain if individuals have attained levels. What they do is ask questions on the long courses that when answered would indicate that an individual has passed through certain insight knowledges. Goenka s discourses in long courses describe entering Jhanas and what to look for what to ignore it is for certain that this man knew what he was preaching quite well.

2.im quite certain that the technique practiced in Goenka tradition is in perfect alignment with Buddha’s teachings.

3.im not versed in your 16 stage anapasatti meditation method if it also works great!!!
It’s probably the same practice as one progresses in each technique.