What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:51 am

As I presented the matter (heh) initially, the relevant point is whether materiality gives rise to immateriality or the reverse, not to which extent one or the other are admitted to 'exist'.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:51 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:49 am
No, because those elements arise dependent on consciousness in the Buddha's Dhamma.
Those elements arise dependent on consciousness in Dylan's personal interpretation of Dhamma.

Its 10:50pm here. Good night. With metta. :thanks: :hello: :zzz:
That is not true.
"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form...
"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form....
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... #dependent

Ok Goodnight.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:54 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 am
That is not true.
Below:
There are, Ānanda, these eighteen elements: the eye element, the form element, the eye-consciousness element; the ear element, the sound element, the ear-consciousness element; the nose element, the odor element, the nose-consciousness element; the tongue element, the flavor element, the tongue-consciousness element; the body element, the tangible element, the body-consciousness element; the mind element, the mind-object element, the mind-consciousness element. When he knows and sees these eighteen elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.

MN 115

Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises... MN 18
:alien:
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 am
"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form...
"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form....
Different context. Further, your interpretation appears materialistic, i.e., meta-physical.

Good night. :candle:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:57 am

Mind precedes all things. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-made. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
Dhammapada 1.1

The 12 links of dependent origination are not bound by context.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:58 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:57 am
Mind precedes all things :roll: . Mind is their chief; they are all mind-made. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
Dhammapada 1.1

The 12 links of dependent origination are not bound by context.
Sorry. Dhp 1 is about mano & intention rather than consciousness (vinanna). Dhamma is not questionable translations, such as the solipsism presented above. I suggest to refer to the explanation of D.O. by Nanananda you yourself linked yesterday, where N includes breathing as a sankhara.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:00 pm

This is not solipsism. It doesn't say "my mind".
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:01 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:00 pm
This is not solipsism. It doesn't say "my mind".
OK. But the translation still appears very dodgy. :mrgreen:

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:02 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:01 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:00 pm
This is not solipsism. It doesn't say "my mind".
OK. But the translation still appears very dodgy. :mrgreen:
Why? Sometimes "things" is rendered as "mind-objects" but I think that is dodgy, the word is just "dhamma".
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:37 pm

:focus:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:58 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:24 am
What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Dūraṅgamaṃ ekacaraṃ, asarīraṃ guhāsayaṃ; Ye cittaṃ saṃyamissanti, mokkhanti mārabandhanā.

Dwelling in the cave, the mind, without form, wanders far and alone. Those who subdue this mind are liberated from the bonds of Mara.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
With my observations of damma asariran means that the mind has no material form ( and with modern science they are waves) ; these as waves can reach far ends. ( Perhaps telepathy sets an example) ; The cave is spaces in our own body ( The base of the mind lies in the body with ear , nose, tongue, brain as for tactile base, and tongue for taste), and are the bases of vingnana acting with contact phassa. These bases too are not permanent as of anitya or impermanence.
With meditation we train the mind to lie on one of the bases without shifting ( citta ekaggata).
Buddagosa in visuddimagga had stated that the mind base lies in the heart and there are many arguments against this notion.
Therefore we can infer that mind base with vingnana to analyse phassa vedana sangna sankara to create karma lies on the pancendriya shifting with where the outer world contacts. Vipassana will be our teacher to analyse this effect.
With metta.

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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:37 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:02 pm
Why? Sometimes "things" is rendered as "mind-objects" but I think that is dodgy, the word is just "dhamma".
"Things" means everything, including sights (material forms), sounds, smells, tastes & touches and the whole universe. Therefore, in the phrase: "Sabbe dhamma anatta ti", the translation of "things" or "phenomena" is appropriate; where things includes everything, including Nibbana.

But the word 'dhamme' contained in the sense sphere triad of mano (mind sense organ), mind-consciousness (mano-vinnana) and mind-objects (dhamme) means "mind-objects", namely, feelings, perceptions, thoughts, defilements, mental images & Nibbana.

Therefore, the word 'dhamme' in Dhammpada 1 as well as in the 6th sense sphere triad is generally held to not mean 'things' but, instead, "mental states" & "mind-objects". However, the word 'dhamma' can also mean "practises" (e.g., AN 10.15; AN 10.58), both unskillful & skillful.

Personally, I cannot confidently suggest how the word 'dhamma' should be translated in Dhp 1 however I can confidently suggest it does not mean 'things' or 'phenomena' because this simply appears alien to the context, which is about intention & kamma and results (vipaka).

Also, as mentioned, the word for mind is "mano" rather than "vinnana". The word "mano" implies the intellect or decision making is operating rather than mere sensory experience of consciousness (vinnana).
1. Mano precedes all dhammā. Mano is their chief; they are all mano-wrought. If with an impure manasā a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mano precedes all dhammā. Mano is their chief; they are all mano-wrought. If with a pure manasā a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
It is Buddhism 101 to know the word 'dhamma' can be translated in numerous ways dependent upon the context. For example, when Upatissa (Sariputta) asked the arahant Assaji: "Under whom, friend, have you gone forth as an ascetic? Who is your teacher and whose doctrine (dhamma) do you profess?" or when the Buddha used the term 'Dhamma-Vinaya', the word 'dhamma' here obviously does not mean 'thing'.

With metta

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