What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:34 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:26 am
My argument is not that here in this quote the Buddha is refuting this view on the basis is materialist. He actually doesn't refute it at all in the sutta.

My argument is that this sort of view is clearly in-line with modern materialism & not-in-line with the Buddha's teachings. That's all.
You originally posted:
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:32 am
Hi. There is no evidence whatsoever that the brain is the causal origin of the mind. It is a philosophical view held by materialists.
People who hold the view that "brain is the causal origin of the mind" do not necessarily hold all of the other views of Ajita Kesakambalin, which deny the efficacy of kamma. Your attempted correlation here appears non-sequitur, similar to the impression given that the doctrine of "elements" (dhatu) is non-Buddhist.
'These are the six elements’: this, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted … uncensured by wise ascetics and brahmins.

AN 3.61
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:35 am

I originally only quoted the single sentence from Ajita, the rest came upon your request. Materialists do indeed by necessity share the view of that single sentence.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:36 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:35 am
I originally only quoted the single sentence from Ajita, the rest came upon your request. Materialists do indeed by necessity share the view of that single sentence.
You seemed to originally only quote the single sentence from Ajita both out of context & contrary to the teaching of the elements (dhatu) by the Buddha. MN 140 is all about elements https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html, including terminating life with a mindful & wise view of elements. Your argument appears to be including the Buddha as a "materialist".

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:36 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:35 am
I originally only quoted the single sentence from Ajita, the rest came upon your request. Materialists do indeed by necessity share the view of that single sentence.
You seemed to originally only quote the single sentence from Ajita both out of context & contrary to the teaching of the elements by the Buddha. MN 140 is all about elements https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html, including terminating life with a mindful & wise view of elements.
Why does it matter that it was out of context or contrary to the teaching of elements by the Buddha? The only point I intended to make with the quote was that some sectarians contemporary to the Buddha were materialist.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:41 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:40 am
The only point I intended to make with the quote was that some sectarians contemporary to the Buddha were materialist.
Including the Buddha?
The Blessed One said: "A person has six properties (elements) .... Cha dhāturo ayaṃ puriso... "

MN 140

There are, Ānanda, these six elements: the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the air element, the space element, and the consciousness element. When he knows and sees these six elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.

MN 115
Ajita Kesakambala said to me.... a person is composed of the four primary elements.

DN 2

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:41 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:40 am
The only point I intended to make with the quote was that some sectarians contemporary to the Buddha were materialist.
Including the Buddha?
The Blessed One said: "A person has six properties (elements) .... Cha dhāturo ayaṃ puriso... "

MN 140
Ajita Kesakambala said to me.... a person is composed of the four primary elements.

DN 2
Can you please list those six elements the Buddha mentions?
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:47 am

Also, :offtopic:

Sorry Sarath
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:47 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:46 am
Can you please list those six elements the Buddha mentions?
I already did. Will you argue the Buddha was 83.33% materialistic rather than 100% materialistic?

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:47 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:46 am
Can you please list those six elements the Buddha mentions?
I already did. Will you argue the Buddha was 83.33% materialistic rather than 100% materialistic?
No, because those elements arise dependent on consciousness in the Buddha's Dhamma.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:51 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:49 am
No, because those elements arise dependent on consciousness in the Buddha's Dhamma.
Those elements arise dependent on consciousness in Dylan's personal interpretation of Dhamma.

Its 10:50pm here. Good night. With metta. :thanks: :hello: :zzz:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:51 am

As I presented the matter (heh) initially, the relevant point is whether materiality gives rise to immateriality or the reverse, not to which extent one or the other are admitted to 'exist'.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:51 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:49 am
No, because those elements arise dependent on consciousness in the Buddha's Dhamma.
Those elements arise dependent on consciousness in Dylan's personal interpretation of Dhamma.

Its 10:50pm here. Good night. With metta. :thanks: :hello: :zzz:
That is not true.
"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form...
"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form....
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... #dependent

Ok Goodnight.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:54 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 am
That is not true.
Below:
There are, Ānanda, these eighteen elements: the eye element, the form element, the eye-consciousness element; the ear element, the sound element, the ear-consciousness element; the nose element, the odor element, the nose-consciousness element; the tongue element, the flavor element, the tongue-consciousness element; the body element, the tangible element, the body-consciousness element; the mind element, the mind-object element, the mind-consciousness element. When he knows and sees these eighteen elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.

MN 115

Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises... MN 18
:alien:
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 am
"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form...
"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form....
Different context. Further, your interpretation appears materialistic, i.e., meta-physical.

Good night. :candle:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:57 am

Mind precedes all things. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-made. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
Dhammapada 1.1

The 12 links of dependent origination are not bound by context.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:58 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:57 am
Mind precedes all things :roll: . Mind is their chief; they are all mind-made. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
Dhammapada 1.1

The 12 links of dependent origination are not bound by context.
Sorry. Dhp 1 is about mano & intention rather than consciousness (vinanna). Dhamma is not questionable translations, such as the solipsism presented above. I suggest to refer to the explanation of D.O. by Nanananda you yourself linked yesterday, where N includes breathing as a sankhara.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:00 pm

This is not solipsism. It doesn't say "my mind".
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

DooDoot
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:01 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:00 pm
This is not solipsism. It doesn't say "my mind".
OK. But the translation still appears very dodgy. :mrgreen:

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dylanj
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:02 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:01 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:00 pm
This is not solipsism. It doesn't say "my mind".
OK. But the translation still appears very dodgy. :mrgreen:
Why? Sometimes "things" is rendered as "mind-objects" but I think that is dodgy, the word is just "dhamma".
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:37 pm

:focus:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:58 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:24 am
What it means by that the mind reside in the cave?

Dūraṅgamaṃ ekacaraṃ, asarīraṃ guhāsayaṃ; Ye cittaṃ saṃyamissanti, mokkhanti mārabandhanā.

Dwelling in the cave, the mind, without form, wanders far and alone. Those who subdue this mind are liberated from the bonds of Mara.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
With my observations of damma asariran means that the mind has no material form ( and with modern science they are waves) ; these as waves can reach far ends. ( Perhaps telepathy sets an example) ; The cave is spaces in our own body ( The base of the mind lies in the body with ear , nose, tongue, brain as for tactile base, and tongue for taste), and are the bases of vingnana acting with contact phassa. These bases too are not permanent as of anitya or impermanence.
With meditation we train the mind to lie on one of the bases without shifting ( citta ekaggata).
Buddagosa in visuddimagga had stated that the mind base lies in the heart and there are many arguments against this notion.
Therefore we can infer that mind base with vingnana to analyse phassa vedana sangna sankara to create karma lies on the pancendriya shifting with where the outer world contacts. Vipassana will be our teacher to analyse this effect.
With metta.

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