Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Bundokji
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Bundokji » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:36 am

2600htz wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:24 pm
Hello:

It depends on a lot of aspects.

But some times people maintain celibacy for wrong reasons: to hide a pedophile inclination, porn and masturbation addiction, mental illness, fear of the opposite sex, lack of status and low self esteem, etc.

Regards.
Everything can be done for the wrong reasons, but i fail to see how engaging in sexual activities can be done for the "right reasons" from a Buddhist perspective!
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

justindesilva
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:41 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:36 am
2600htz wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:24 pm
Hello:

It depends on a lot of aspects.

But some times people maintain celibacy for wrong reasons: to hide a pedophile inclination, porn and masturbation addiction, mental illness, fear of the opposite sex, lack of status and low self esteem, etc.

Regards.
Everything can be done for the wrong reasons, but i fail to see how engaging in sexual activities can be done for the "right reasons" from a Buddhist perspective!
Lord buddha before being enlightened was not a celibate but lived with princess yasodara and had a son Rahula. Later one of her major desciples Visaka who gave birth to 20 children was a sotapanna. Millionaire( situ) Anathapindika was a sotapanna along with his daughters and were having family lives to have had children.
So it is my belief when lord budda preached the ills of sex for one to follow celibacy, it is for those who were aiming to reach nirvana as with a mind of sexual pleasures ones mind is totally clouded .
This is why lord budda laid the 3 rd precept. Even in parabhava and Sigalovada suttas meant for lay people they were not advised to be celbates but were advised not to mis use sexual pleasures .Not to mis use means sexual acts to be properly used as a necessity. The necessity is if this world is to continue propagation is necessary. But the highest goal to be achieved is nibbana.
(This is my view open to be corrected.)

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Bundokji
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Bundokji » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:24 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:41 pm
Lord buddha before being enlightened was not a celibate but lived with princess yasodara and had a son Rahula. Later one of her major desciples Visaka who gave birth to 20 children was a sotapanna. Millionaire( situ) Anathapindika was a sotapanna along with his daughters and were having family lives to have had children.
So it is my belief when lord budda preached the ills of sex for one to follow celibacy, it is for those who were aiming to reach nirvana as with a mind of sexual pleasures ones mind is totally clouded .
This is why lord budda laid the 3 rd precept. Even in parabhava and Sigalovada suttas meant for lay people they were not advised to be celbates but were advised not to mis use sexual pleasures .Not to mis use means sexual acts to be properly used as a necessity. The necessity is if this world is to continue propagation is necessary. But the highest goal to be achieved is nibbana.
(This is my view open to be corrected.)
The Buddha's life before enlightenment, at least in my mind, serves to indicate his love for the truth and the sacrifices he made to go and search for an end of suffering. It is telling us that he had a lot to lose (from worldly perspective) and yet, he decided to leave everything behind, so its not a prescriptive of how life should be lived but quite the opposite (hence he left it behind).

I agree that some Buddhists use the teachings to achieve more favorable rebirths in future lives and focus on the moral aspects of the teachings, so from a conventional moral perspective, there is nothing wrong with having sex as long as it does not constitute sexual misconduct.

But when you observe the mind states which leads to sexual acts, you might find that they represent everything the Buddha came to eliminate. For example, it involved viewing the other as an object for desire or as a mean to generate sensual pleasure (in contrast with compassion). It also depends on seeing the body as attractive (and overlooking its unattractive nature). Also fantasy is necessary not only when you are trying to seduce someone, but the act itself is built on fantasy, role playing, craving and self view, and the pleasure experienced plants the seed for future desires to arise which become a source of pain unless you continue to engage in sexual , an endless cycle.

By the way, i am not completely celibate yet, but the more i practice, the more i see sex as hindrance to practice. At least i stop rationalize it as being "natural" or "normal" which i hope can be a good start.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

justindesilva
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:56 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:24 pm
justindesilva wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:41 pm
Lord buddha before being enlightened was not a celibate but lived with princess yasodara and had a son Rahula. Later one of her major desciples Visaka who gave birth to 20 children was a sotapanna. Millionaire( situ) Anathapindika was a sotapanna along with his daughters and were having family lives to have had children.
So it is my belief when lord budda preached the ills of sex for one to follow celibacy, it is for those who were aiming to reach nirvana as with a mind of sexual pleasures ones mind is totally clouded .
This is why lord budda laid the 3 rd precept. Even in parabhava and Sigalovada suttas meant for lay people they were not advised to be celbates but were advised not to mis use sexual pleasures .Not to mis use means sexual acts to be properly used as a necessity. The necessity is if this world is to continue propagation is necessary. But the highest goal to be achieved is nibbana.
(This is my view open to be corrected.)
The Buddha's life before enlightenment, at least in my mind, serves to indicate his love for the truth and the sacrifices he made to go and search for an end of suffering. It is telling us that he had a lot to lose (from worldly perspective) and yet, he decided to leave everything behind, so its not a prescriptive of how life should be lived but quite the opposite (hence he left it behind).


But when you observe the mind states which leads to sexual acts, you might find that they represent everything the Buddha came to eliminate. For example, it involved viewing the other as an object for desire or as a mean to generate sensual pleasure (in contrast with compassion). It also depends on seeing the body as attractive (and overlooking its unattractive nature). Also fantasy is necessary not only when you are trying to seduce someone, but the act itself is built on fantasy, role playing, craving and self view, and the pleasure experienced plants the seed for future desires to arise which become a source of pain unless you continue to engage in sexual , an endless cycle.

By the way, i am not completely celibate yet, but the more i practice, the more i see sex as hindrance to practice. At least i stop rationalize it as being "natural" or "normal" which i hope can be a good start.
Thank you Bundojki
Your answer in this post here indicates a bare truth that the sexual conduct of men and women are totally egoistic where compassion and maithri is not exposed .
It is much easier for a celibate to be more compassionate to the world and society. And of course from the character of Siddartha we can see that he was compelled to get married by his parents.

2600htz
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by 2600htz » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:22 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:36 am
2600htz wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:24 pm
Hello:

It depends on a lot of aspects.

But some times people maintain celibacy for wrong reasons: to hide a pedophile inclination, porn and masturbation addiction, mental illness, fear of the opposite sex, lack of status and low self esteem, etc.

Regards.
Everything can be done for the wrong reasons, but i fail to see how engaging in sexual activities can be done for the "right reasons" from a Buddhist perspective!
Hello:

I do not say that sexual activity is not a fetter from a Buddhist perspective, but i do see some danger talking about celibacy to lay people, because it can lead to certain problems.

Regards.

auto
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by auto » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:28 pm

Originally there is no sex difference, what the body will have shown up comes out later. Also body doesn't need food, but because of eating food craving arises and we will need eat again..
The way is going back to original nature.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:37 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:28 pm

The way is going back to original nature.
Digha Nikaya 27 - Agañña Sutta

Then those beings feasting on this rice in the clearings, feeding on it, nourished by it, so continued for a long long while. And in measure as they, thus feeding, went on existing, so did the bodies of those beings become even more solid, and the divergence in their comeliness more pronounced. In the female appeared the distinctive features of the female, in the male those of the male. Then truly did woman contemplate man too closely, and man, woman. In them contemplating over much the one the other, passion arose and burning entered their body. They in consequence thereof followed their lusts. And beings seeing them so doing threw, some, sand, some, ashes, some, cowdung, crying: Perish, foul one! Perish, foul one! How can a being treat a being so? Even so now when men, in certain districts, when a bride is led away, throw either sand, or ashes, or cowdung, they do but follow an ancient enduring primordial form, not recognizing the significance thereof.

That which was reckoned immoral at that time, Vāseṭṭha, is now reckoned to be moral.

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn27

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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archaic
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by archaic » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:23 am

Why is celibacy for a layperson a big deal at all?

It's all about encouraging an accurate mindset of the concept. No need for repression or unhealthy techniques to suppress. Some of people in this thread seem to suggest that sex is such a powerfully good thing it has to be inherently stressful to give up. I disagree.

It's all about encouraging the proper, realistic, mindset of the subject. Sex is not inherently beautiful or wonderful or amazing, etc. unless one focuses one's perceptions on these concepts. It is really not unrealistic for any layperson to give up sex & self-pleasure once they expose themselves to the true realities of the subject.

Personally, I used to be extremely sex driven. By observing my attraction to the other sex I noticed myself and most of us (especially in Western society) are so used to seeing sexuality with rose-coloured glasses we ignore any relevant negatives just out of habit. Literally we are **choosing** our perceptions of sex to be super positive.

Of course, there are opposing forces to deconditioning this tendency. For example, it is our biological tendency to view sex as inherently good. Also prevailing social tendencies brainwash people into this mindset (ie./ advertisements selling sex, people everywhere chattering and obsessed with dating and/or sex as a measure of their self-worth, younger and younger people dressing as provocatively as possible, birth control allowing extremely frivolous sexual choices, pornography being incredibly prevalent, even romantic novels like Shades of Grey, etc.)

But one can provide "counter-arguments" to this one-sided sexual positivity brainwashing. The traditional Buddhist meditations on foulness and the body parts are recommended as cures for sensual lust... I tried them and found them mildly effective.

I am frequently around attractive women in my day-to-day life. So when exposed to beautiful women I began trying to visualize them only as their skeletons so as to de-sexualize them and see them as simply human beings.

I later moved to a more graphic practice. It was to view attractive women as piles of discoordinated bodyparts (ie./ if you saw a Porsche 911 and took it apart, and laid all the pieces on display from car doors to windows to motor oil, gas, exhaust, paint, etc.). One person sees a beautiful person, I would see masses of living parts, splayed out in messy dripping piles of organs, tissues, and decaying organic matter.

There was a famous quote by some Buddhist monastic who said something like if you were flipped inside-out, with all your organs exposed and juices dribbing and dripping everywhere, with all of the smells and horrible sights... Even your mother wouldn't want to be anywhere near you.

I found these techniques were quite useful, but one can get more graphic for the modern age if one is overcome with desire:
-try spending some quality time looking at close-up medical pictures of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (for both sexes)
-look at statistics (ie./ did you know 80 million Americans... 1/4 of the population haveHPV virus which causes warts on the genitals, and even cancer?)
-watch YouTube videos of surgeries and diseased organ-removals on the bodyparts
-look at real anatomy pictures of humans
-observe cadaver or medical examiner photos
-or for the social implications watch one of those Netflix documentaries on the life-after-porn, or the one about Rocco (a retired porn star, who explains the negative aftermath of his addiction to sex)

These certainly act as reminders that flesh is flesh, desire is ugly, it's not inherently good or wonderful.. In fact some aspects can be soberingly grotesque. I found these things can be a useful cure for all this sex-positivity programming.

What is sex really? One just needs to frequently remind oneself of the less-romantic realities of the shoving engorged organs within mucous-dripping organs.

In the Atthakavagga Buddha said he would not go near one of the most beautiful women in the whole land, who was sought after by kings...
"How would I then wish to touch this bag full of excrement and urine, even with the tip of my foot?"

Or similarly, if you saw a dog on the street, what are the chances you would want to touch it's anus or genitals? Probably not likely... However the reality is that the dog's parts are likely cleaner than many humans, because the dog licks them frequently, at the first sign of odour, and his/her saliva is anti-bacterial.

Disgusting? Yes. It's meant to be. Question your fixations.

Sex is *not* inherently good, it's our perceptions which are drawn to this concept, but our perceptions are deluded and draw us away from the truth. It doesn't need to be stressful to be celibate. In fact, by proclaiming the difficulty of this endeavour, one is doing a disservice to those who might be better encouraged to give it a try, so they can see the benefits.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

auto
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by auto » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:30 pm

Many methods but the best is what liberate you from unconscious thinking and action when not being aware of crucial turning points where could see craving and the way to end it.
Life is like a dynamo and there is electrical spark happen and chain reactions.

The dynamo happens all the time when we breath or with sense organs we look at objects and into sky(space nothing at all) back and worth, it cultivates the mind substance, it comes sensible and then seeing atractive form it gets attached and sensual warmth happens, and here when you can recognize it as your mind you can also locate the leakage in lower abdomen and once you notice it(happens automatically) the craving stops.
It is of course more steps and difficult and can spawn of entire year, before you can get into lower abdomen cavity.

Subtle substance what breath cultivates and it follows the breath, it can be manually cultivated by breath control methods to get access to head..substance will go all states and forms, all kinds of sleep states..
---------
Anyways the point is the biological instincts can be matured and overcome by knowing how to cultivate and awoke craving or lust manually. Like cat doesn't need to see a mouse to evoke the form of a hunter and know the moves.

But external forms; others, it is other principle in play, it affects the body and it depends the power in body. Our own mind wise we can remove delusion pretty much instantly by will if we are aware, but there is also cavity in lower abdomen in the body and besides body there are also others who can afflict you because they don't cultivate the way..

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by archaic » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:49 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:30 pm
sensual warmth happens, and here when you can recognize it as your mind you can also locate the leakage in lower abdomen and once you notice it(happens automatically) the craving stops.
It is of course more steps and difficult and can spawn of entire year, before you can get into lower abdomen cavity.
Can you describe this in more detail? I am interested.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:01 pm

Verse 186. Sensual Pleasures Never Satiated

Not by rain of golden coins
is found desires’ satiety,
desires are dukkha, of little joy,
thus a wise one understands.


Image

Explanation: Insatiable are sensual desires. Sensual desires will not be satisfied even with a shower of gold. The wise knows that sensual pleasure bring but little satisfaction and much pain.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_buddha.htm


:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

auto
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by auto » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:43 pm

archaic wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:49 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:30 pm
sensual warmth happens, and here when you can recognize it as your mind you can also locate the leakage in lower abdomen and once you notice it(happens automatically) the craving stops.
It is of course more steps and difficult and can spawn of entire year, before you can get into lower abdomen cavity.
Can you describe this in more detail? I am interested.
1.
At first it is not possible to sit in meditation, there is no reason to go and do meditation. There is no point to meditate, it has then ulterior motivation and when that is removed there is nothing gained. There is no mind to contemplate on. Every sensation is dry. There is no point doing breathing practice or noting, it is fabrication, empty doing.

2.
You need different kind of sensations, these are arisen from actions.

When you are at some activity it will end at some point, you need wait for some other activity, boredom arises and when that noticed then sensual craving rises for action. Also you may come bored even when the activity isn't ended, so you need force yourself to finish the task, after finishing the task craving for gratification rises. Waiting a transport, waiting people, getting punished, getting upset, humiliated, feeling like a god etc.
Anyways getting familiar with these sensations you can cultivate these in different situations. Like empathy, you can get a feeling by just seeing others in action. You can use your own thoughts to awoke sensations in body what compensate the desire to act and getting something done and satisfied. So at some point you can do them so much that you can't anymore, then from that space you wait or try different ways to make things happen again.
This is done for one certain thing, it is to get a sensation what will cause you to sweat from the internal heat, face reddening heat. It also possible to achieve it when sitting long enough time you battle with the boredom and desire to quit and pain; then there rises this sensation what triggers heat and sweat.

3.
Then at some point you gain ability to cultivate self-reference, intent, will directly but not fully you see something is hindering it, but you will notice that the capacity grows you get better at cultivating it by force. You will get a black out for a second before you see a needle like light and come back.
[Before that you need get one pointed concentration on breath, it is the subtle breath it will be connected to the body].
You go through some more experiences, you will see mind moves and remove the hindrance, next time it happens you can hold the substance and notice you(vision) start to go dark and disappear.
You then can synchronize the mind and body, remove the hindrance from ordinary daily place. You then are changed.

4.
After that it takes time, like many months before you start urge again, and know what to do and what you will do is concentrate on the lower abdomen from within(you know how to do it), it will activate and the substance will be gathered automatically because you have done the work and opened the points prior. So but this time it is little different your mind starts bleed, sky turns red, and you will get a peak sensual craving and you see that something will move from below to the lower abdomen, at some point the craving stops without you doing action.

You get whole range of a sensation, what can be cultivated directly.
Every time you get more automatic and can work with something new and can spot shortcuts what cultivate requirements sooner.

There is also signs what happen in different times. Like balls of light, bright light, sun, light burn on vision(same what is when looking at a sun), hearing white noise, high pitched tone, also within hearing there storks sound, coming aware, noticing awareness, noticing the space and objects are the space, they are like moving floating, sicknesses, something is moving under the face skin, something is moving in the ears, different kind of dreams, lucid, sensual, opening cavities, pain etc.

Basically every single thing what happens is accounted also as path you follow and the signs can be interpreted what will happen next or where your mind is, so you can use any object as a reference for to constantly ping information.

Also beware sickensses appear because you need learn how to do something within the body and the sypmtoms won't stop before you get it right. Losing some few tooths because of this is worth at the end, but a lot of pain, the pain forces you to into correct feelings and sesnation the ncultivating fro mthat point the cure happens also you get knowledge and can do things sooner, so certain proccesses are not needed and you starts saving.

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archaic
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by archaic » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:25 am

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:01 pm
Verse 186. Sensual Pleasures Never Satiated

Not by rain of golden coins
is found desires’ satiety,
desires are dukkha, of little joy,
thus a wise one understands.


Image

Explanation: Insatiable are sensual desires. Sensual desires will not be satisfied even with a shower of gold. The wise knows that sensual pleasure bring but little satisfaction and much pain.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_buddha.htm


:anjali:
True but we don't need to let the sensual desires go into the stage of being cognized and spinning webs of thoughts around them.

If we just let them go, then no action is taken as a result of the desires and no damage is done.... Right?
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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archaic
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by archaic » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:29 am

auto wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:43 pm
archaic wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:49 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:30 pm
sensual warmth happens, and here when you can recognize it as your mind you can also locate the leakage in lower abdomen and once you notice it(happens automatically) the craving stops.
It is of course more steps and difficult and can spawn of entire year, before you can get into lower abdomen cavity.
Can you describe this in more detail? I am interested.
1.
At first it is not possible to sit in meditation, there is no reason to go and do meditation. There is no point to meditate, it has then ulterior motivation and when that is removed there is nothing gained. There is no mind to contemplate on. Every sensation is dry. There is no point doing breathing practice or noting, it is fabrication, empty doing.

2.
You need different kind of sensations, these are arisen from actions.

When you are at some activity it will end at some point, you need wait for some other activity, boredom arises and when that noticed then sensual craving rises for action. Also you may come bored even when the activity isn't ended, so you need force yourself to finish the task, after finishing the task craving for gratification rises. Waiting a transport, waiting people, getting punished, getting upset, humiliated, feeling like a god etc.
Anyways getting familiar with these sensations you can cultivate these in different situations. Like empathy, you can get a feeling by just seeing others in action. You can use your own thoughts to awoke sensations in body what compensate the desire to act and getting something done and satisfied. So at some point you can do them so much that you can't anymore, then from that space you wait or try different ways to make things happen again.
This is done for one certain thing, it is to get a sensation what will cause you to sweat from the internal heat, face reddening heat. It also possible to achieve it when sitting long enough time you battle with the boredom and desire to quit and pain; then there rises this sensation what triggers heat and sweat.

3.
Then at some point you gain ability to cultivate self-reference, intent, will directly but not fully you see something is hindering it, but you will notice that the capacity grows you get better at cultivating it by force. You will get a black out for a second before you see a needle like light and come back.
[Before that you need get one pointed concentration on breath, it is the subtle breath it will be connected to the body].
You go through some more experiences, you will see mind moves and remove the hindrance, next time it happens you can hold the substance and notice you(vision) start to go dark and disappear.
You then can synchronize the mind and body, remove the hindrance from ordinary daily place. You then are changed.

4.
After that it takes time, like many months before you start urge again, and know what to do and what you will do is concentrate on the lower abdomen from within(you know how to do it), it will activate and the substance will be gathered automatically because you have done the work and opened the points prior. So but this time it is little different your mind starts bleed, sky turns red, and you will get a peak sensual craving and you see that something will move from below to the lower abdomen, at some point the craving stops without you doing action.

You get whole range of a sensation, what can be cultivated directly.
Every time you get more automatic and can work with something new and can spot shortcuts what cultivate requirements sooner.

There is also signs what happen in different times. Like balls of light, bright light, sun, light burn on vision(same what is when looking at a sun), hearing white noise, high pitched tone, also within hearing there storks sound, coming aware, noticing awareness, noticing the space and objects are the space, they are like moving floating, sicknesses, something is moving under the face skin, something is moving in the ears, different kind of dreams, lucid, sensual, opening cavities, pain etc.

Basically every single thing what happens is accounted also as path you follow and the signs can be interpreted what will happen next or where your mind is, so you can use any object as a reference for to constantly ping information.

Also beware sickensses appear because you need learn how to do something within the body and the sypmtoms won't stop before you get it right. Losing some few tooths because of this is worth at the end, but a lot of pain, the pain forces you to into correct feelings and sesnation the ncultivating fro mthat point the cure happens also you get knowledge and can do things sooner, so certain proccesses are not needed and you starts saving.
I definitely experience steps 1 and 2.

But I've never seen any visualizations like you describe in step 3 and 4... I never see any visualizations during meditation when I focus on my breath or sensations... If I let my imagination begin to visualize, my mind produces all sorts of visual distractions so when I meditation I just concentrate on the breath or sensations. I try not to let visualizations in, or I get very distracted.

However thank you for describing them in detail, I appreciate your effort... I don't think I can do step 3 and 4, my mind work differently.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

auto
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by auto » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:08 pm

archaic wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:29 am


I definitely experience steps 1 and 2.

But I've never seen any visualizations like you describe in step 3 and 4... I never see any visualizations during meditation when I focus on my breath or sensations... If I let my imagination begin to visualize, my mind produces all sorts of visual distractions so when I meditation I just concentrate on the breath or sensations. I try not to let visualizations in, or I get very distracted.

However thank you for describing them in detail, I appreciate your effort... I don't think I can do step 3 and 4, my mind work differently.
from

Abhidhamma
Abhidhamma wrote: Our mind is normally not tranquil or calm. It is constantly
agitated by five hindrances (nivaraõas); namely, sensuous desire
(kàmacchanda), illwill (vyàpàda), sloth and torpor (thina-middha),
restlessness and remorse (uddhacca-kukkucca) and sceptical doubt
(vicikicchà).
...
Pãti develops joy or pleasurable interest in the object; it
temporarily inhibits illwill. Pãti is also a precursor of sukha
(pleasant feeling). Pãti creates an interest in the subject while
sukha enables one to enjoy the object. Sukha holds the mind to
stay longer on the object by its bliss; it temporarily drives away
restlessness and remorse.
...
Ekaggatà gathers the citta and its concomitants on the object
to reach the state of one-pointedness; it temporarily inhibits
sensual desire.
...
When the hindrances subside temporarily, the mind does not
wander away from the object as frequently as before and weak
degree of concentration is attained. At this stage one can see the
earth-circle with closed eyes as one has seen it with open eyes.
This visualised image is called uggaha-nimitta (acquired image).
..
Now one meditates on this acquired image with closed eyes,
saying mentally “pathavã, pathavã” as before. When one reaches
a higher degree of concentration, the image suddenly changes
its colour and appearance. It becomes many times brighter and
is as smooth as the surface of a mirror. The change is like taking
a mirror out of its rough leather case. This new image is also
known as pañibhàga-nimitta (counter-image).
...
The difference between the two images is very distinct.
Uggaha-nimitta is an exact mental replica of the original object;
it contains all the defects present in the original object. Pañibhàga
nimitta is free from all defects; it is very bright and smooth. The
latter may not possess a definite form or colour – “ It is just a
mode of appearance, and is born of perception.”
...
As soon as the pañibhàga-nimitta arises, the concentration
(samàdhi) reaches a state known as upacàra-samàdhi, i.e., neighbourhood
(or access) concentration. At this stage the five jhàna
factors become distinct and strong; pãti and sukha are so predominant
that the meditator experiences ecstatic joy and bliss
which he has never experienced before.
...
As soon as the pañibhàga-nimitta arises, the concentration
(samàdhi) reaches a state known as upacàra-samàdhi, i.e., neighbourhood
(or access) concentration. At this stage the five jhàna
factors become distinct and strong; pãti and sukha are so predominant
that the meditator experiences ecstatic joy and bliss
which he has never experienced before.
...
He now let the pañibhàga-nimitta spread endlessly in all
directions by his will power, and meditates “pañhavã, pañhavã”
as before. Eventually he gains jhàna-samàdhi or appanà-samàdhi
(meditative concentration). At this stage, he can enjoy the calmness,
serenity, joy and bliss of the jhàna again and again as much
as he wishes. If he practices well, he can remain in absorption
or trance for an hour, two hours, a day, two days or up to seven
days. During this absorption, there is a complete, though temporary,
suspension of fivefold sense-activity and of the five
hindrances. The state of consciousness is, however, fully alert
and lucid.
these writings make the path sound easy, but in reality the sensual desire is hard to overcome when it rises and we don't even notice the hindrances, i have no idea what hindering me right now, so i need cultivate till i recognize. Stages can last long time, to attain access concetration can take months at first
Anyway if you take obejct like candle light and start watch it, then good luck getting into concentration. Prepare for watching years.
Abhidhamma wrote: In the first jhàna, all the five jhàna-factors are present. Then
by meditating on the pañibhàga-nimitta of pathavã-kasiõa further
and eliminating the lower jhàna- factors one by one, a person
can attain the higher jhànas. He attains the second jhàna when
vitakka is eliminated, the third jhàna when vicàra is further
eliminated, the fourth jhàna when pãti is also eliminated, and
finally the fifth jhàna when sukha is replaced by upekkhà.
recon, that when the factors are present then its about eliminating. And you don't have to learn by heart the descriptions, you know what you have to do, when you get there.

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