Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
DooDoot
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:35 am

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 am
As of celibacy it is my belief that sexual desires arising out of 6 sensualitues is the greatest obstacle and the 1st obstacle for a person who needs to meditate.
Have you made a selection here?: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31028 I was the only member that selected sexual misconduct, so far.
justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 am
Sabbasava sutta is a good sutta one can make use of without doubts.
This sutta does not seem particularly helpful because it only refers to eradicating the asava of sensuality but does not provide any method or wisdom.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by auto » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:37 am

if you see attractive form, your mind goes out of the penis. Result is real baby if you let your liquids into fertile grounds not into some other place.

If you cultivate feelings what are reversed like face reddening embarrassment, shame, repentance so that the light from the eyes will be turned inside and mind will get into body and will germinate then at some point you get a mind made body.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:21 pm

but being a lay calibate person and living with a girlfriend who is celibate
:rolleye: :lol:
Most layman cannot practise celibacy but some can. I am a layman & happily practice celibacy for 58% of my life.
"I'm celibate for 99,9% because every 24 hours I'm having sex just for a few trifling minutes" :lol:

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 am
Sabbasava sutta is a good sutta one can make use of without doubts.
This sutta does not seem particularly helpful because it only refers to eradicating the asava of sensuality but does not provide any method or wisdom.
[/quote]
May I please indicate that the path to wisdom lies by eradicating defilements ( asava)

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:24 am

justindesilva wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:53 am
May I please indicate that the path to wisdom lies by eradicating defilements ( asava)
In my opinion, the path to eradicating defilements ( asava) lies by wisdom.
I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’

MN 4

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:00 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:24 am
justindesilva wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:53 am
May I please indicate that the path to wisdom lies by eradicating defilements ( asava)
In my opinion, the path to eradicating defilements ( asava) lies by wisdom.
I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’

MN 4
The noble eightfold path leads one on steps of sila , samadhi , prajna ( wisdom). Eradication of defilements leads one to sila (virtues) that leads to samadhi which is the path to wisdom.
Here I stop .

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:31 am

Let the intelligent person live a celibate life,
as one would avoid a pit of glowing coals;
but being unable to live the celibate life,
go not beyond the bounds with others’ partners.

https://suttacentral.net/en/snp2.14

the answer is yes, implied.

If one, longing for sexual pleasure, achieves it, yes, he's enraptured at heart. The mortal gets what he wants. But if for that person — longing, desiring — the pleasures diminish, he's shattered, as if shot with an arrow.
— Kama Sutta, Sutta Nipata

The Buddha then goes on to say:

So one, always mindful, should avoid sexual desires. Letting them go, he will cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore.


this is from the buddhist monastic code:
"'Worthless man, [sexual intercourse] is unseemly, out of line, unsuitable, and unworthy of a contemplative; improper and not to be done... Haven't I taught the Dhamma in many ways for the sake of dispassion and not for passion; for unfettering and not for fettering; for freedom from clinging and not for clinging? Yet here, while I have taught the Dhamma for dispassion, you set your heart on passion; while I have taught the Dhamma for unfettering, you set your heart on being fettered; while I have taught the Dhamma for freedom from clinging, you set your heart on clinging."

"'Worthless man, haven't I taught the Dhamma in many ways for the fading of passion, the sobering of intoxication, the subduing of thirst, the destruction of attachment, the severing of the round, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, unbinding? Haven't I in many ways advocated abandoning sensual pleasures, comprehending sensual perceptions, subduing sensual thirst, destroying sensual thoughts, calming sensual fevers? Worthless man, it would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a poisonous snake than into a woman's vagina. It would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a black viper than into a woman's vagina. It would be better that your penis be stuck into a pit of burning embers, blazing and glowing, than into a woman's vagina. Why is that? For that reason you would undergo death or death-like suffering, but you would not on that account, at the break-up of the body, after death, fall into deprivation, the bad destination, the abyss, hell..."

"'Worthless man, this neither inspires faith in the faithless nor increases the faithful. Rather, it inspires lack of faith in the faithless and wavering in some of the faithful.'"

of course, this admonishment is for a monk (the first offender who caused the buddha to lay down the rule of celibacy), but see how he completely condemns sex. lust is extremely difficult to root out, and if you succeed in doing so you can become a non-returner.. in order to do so, you have to enter and remain in celibacy. it takes a lot of faith and determination
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:35 am

The Blessed One said this:

“Householder, suppose a dog, overcome by hunger and weakness, was waiting by a butcher’s shop. Then a skilled butcher or his apprentice would toss the dog a well hacked, clean hacked skeleton of meatless bones smeared with blood. What do you think, householder? Would that dog get rid of his hunger and weakness by gnawing such a well hacked, clean hacked skeleton of meatless bones smeared with blood?”

“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because that was a skeleton of well hacked, clean hacked meatless bones smeared with blood. Eventually that dog would reap weariness and disappointment.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a skeleton by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, he avoids the equanimity that is diversified, based on diversity, and develops the equanimity that is unified, based on unity, where clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose a vulture, a heron, or a hawk seized a piece of meat and flew away, and then vultures, herons, and hawks pursued it and pecked and clawed it. What do you think, householder? If that vulture, heron, or hawk does not quickly let go of that piece of meat, wouldn’t it incur death or deadly suffering because of that?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a piece of meat by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’
Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose a man took a blazing grass torch and went against the wind. What do you think, householder? If that man does not quickly let go of that blazing grass torch, wouldn’t that blazing grass torch burn his hand or his arm or some other part of his body, so that he might incur death or deadly suffering because of that?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a grass torch by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose there were a charcoal pit deeper than a man’s height full of glowing coals without flame or smoke. Then a man came who wanted to live and not to die, who wanted pleasure and recoiled from pain, and two strong men seized him by both arms and dragged him towards that charcoal pit. What do you think, householder? Would that man twist his body this way and that?”

“Yes, venerable sir. Why is that? Because that man knows that if he falls into that charcoal pit, he will incur death or deadly suffering because of that.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a charcoal pit by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose a man dreamt about lovely parks, lovely groves, lovely meadows, and lovely lakes, and on waking he saw nothing of it. So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a dream by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.

“Householder, suppose a man borrowed goods on loan
—a fancy carriage and fine-jewelled earrings—and preceded and surrounded by those borrowed goods he went to the marketplace. Then people, seeing him, would say: ‘Sirs, that is a rich man! That is how the rich enjoy their wealth!’ Then the owners, whenever they saw him, would take back their things. What do you think, householder? Would that be enough for that man to become dejected?”

“Yes, venerable sir. Why is that? Because the owners took back their things.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to borrowed goods by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.


“Householder, suppose there were a dense grove not far from some village or town, within which there was a tree laden with fruit but none of its fruit had fallen to the ground. Then a man came needing fruit, seeking fruit, wandering in search of fruit, and he entered the grove and saw the tree laden with fruit. Thereupon he thought: ‘This tree is laden with fruit but none of its fruit has fallen to the ground. I know how to climb a tree, so let me climb this tree, eat as much fruit as I want, and fill my bag.’ And he did so. Then a second man came needing fruit, seeking fruit, wandering in search of fruit, and taking a sharp axe, he too entered the grove and saw that tree laden with fruit. Thereupon he thought: ‘This tree is laden with fruit but none of its fruit has fallen to the ground. I do not know how to climb a tree, so let me cut this tree down at its root, eat as much fruit as I want, and fill my bag.’ And he did so. What do you think, householder? If that first man who had climbed the tree doesn’t come down quickly, when the tree falls, wouldn’t he break his hand or his foot or some other part of his body,
so that he might incur death or deadly suffering because of that?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to fruits on a tree by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, he avoids the equanimity that is diversified, based on diversity, and develops the equanimity that is unified, based on unity, where clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn54
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:42 am

Contemplating foulness in the body,
Being mindful of in-and-out breathing,
Ever ardent and seeing clearly
The calming down of all formations:

Such a bhikkhu who sees rightly
Is thereby well released.
Accomplished in knowledge, at peace,
That sage has overcome all bonds.

https://suttacentral.net/en/iti85

the practice of contemplating foulness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patikulamanasikara
remember that this in fact is the body as it is; it's just that we are so deluded into finding other humans attractive we fail to notice.
here, the buddha compares the body to a smelly, oozing boil:

“Monks, it’s just as if there were a boil that had been building for many years with nine openings, nine un-lanced heads. Whatever would ooze out from it would be an uncleanliness oozing out, a stench oozing out, a disgust oozing out. Whatever would be discharged from it would be an uncleanliness discharging, a stench discharging, a disgust discharging.

“‘A boil,’ monks, is another word for this body composed of the four properties, born of mother & father, fed on rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing & massaging, breaking-up & disintegrating. It has nine openings, nine un-lanced heads. Whatever would ooze out from it would be an uncleanliness oozing out, a stench oozing out, a disgust oozing out. Whatever would be discharged from it would be an uncleanliness discharging, a stench discharging, a disgust discharging. For that reason, you should become disenchanted with this body.”

(https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.15)

there are definitely more discourses on this. i believe it was compared to madness? well, i hope you benefit from the teachings. and don't forget to practice loving kindness together with contemplation of foulness, or you could end up being so repulsed by your body that you behave unskillfully
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Nwad
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Nwad » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:35 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:21 pm
but being a lay calibate person and living with a girlfriend who is celibate
:rolleye: :lol:
:tongue:
All peoples think that is strange to not having sex vith your companion) I understand it, but no need sex to show your love to someone ;) :hug:
Actualy i love my girlfriend and thats why i cant have a sex with her, its so violent and dirty activity, there is no 'love' in... imho :)

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Bundokji
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Bundokji » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:36 am

2600htz wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:24 pm
Hello:

It depends on a lot of aspects.

But some times people maintain celibacy for wrong reasons: to hide a pedophile inclination, porn and masturbation addiction, mental illness, fear of the opposite sex, lack of status and low self esteem, etc.

Regards.
Everything can be done for the wrong reasons, but i fail to see how engaging in sexual activities can be done for the "right reasons" from a Buddhist perspective!
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:41 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:36 am
2600htz wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:24 pm
Hello:

It depends on a lot of aspects.

But some times people maintain celibacy for wrong reasons: to hide a pedophile inclination, porn and masturbation addiction, mental illness, fear of the opposite sex, lack of status and low self esteem, etc.

Regards.
Everything can be done for the wrong reasons, but i fail to see how engaging in sexual activities can be done for the "right reasons" from a Buddhist perspective!
Lord buddha before being enlightened was not a celibate but lived with princess yasodara and had a son Rahula. Later one of her major desciples Visaka who gave birth to 20 children was a sotapanna. Millionaire( situ) Anathapindika was a sotapanna along with his daughters and were having family lives to have had children.
So it is my belief when lord budda preached the ills of sex for one to follow celibacy, it is for those who were aiming to reach nirvana as with a mind of sexual pleasures ones mind is totally clouded .
This is why lord budda laid the 3 rd precept. Even in parabhava and Sigalovada suttas meant for lay people they were not advised to be celbates but were advised not to mis use sexual pleasures .Not to mis use means sexual acts to be properly used as a necessity. The necessity is if this world is to continue propagation is necessary. But the highest goal to be achieved is nibbana.
(This is my view open to be corrected.)

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Bundokji » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:24 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:41 pm
Lord buddha before being enlightened was not a celibate but lived with princess yasodara and had a son Rahula. Later one of her major desciples Visaka who gave birth to 20 children was a sotapanna. Millionaire( situ) Anathapindika was a sotapanna along with his daughters and were having family lives to have had children.
So it is my belief when lord budda preached the ills of sex for one to follow celibacy, it is for those who were aiming to reach nirvana as with a mind of sexual pleasures ones mind is totally clouded .
This is why lord budda laid the 3 rd precept. Even in parabhava and Sigalovada suttas meant for lay people they were not advised to be celbates but were advised not to mis use sexual pleasures .Not to mis use means sexual acts to be properly used as a necessity. The necessity is if this world is to continue propagation is necessary. But the highest goal to be achieved is nibbana.
(This is my view open to be corrected.)
The Buddha's life before enlightenment, at least in my mind, serves to indicate his love for the truth and the sacrifices he made to go and search for an end of suffering. It is telling us that he had a lot to lose (from worldly perspective) and yet, he decided to leave everything behind, so its not a prescriptive of how life should be lived but quite the opposite (hence he left it behind).

I agree that some Buddhists use the teachings to achieve more favorable rebirths in future lives and focus on the moral aspects of the teachings, so from a conventional moral perspective, there is nothing wrong with having sex as long as it does not constitute sexual misconduct.

But when you observe the mind states which leads to sexual acts, you might find that they represent everything the Buddha came to eliminate. For example, it involved viewing the other as an object for desire or as a mean to generate sensual pleasure (in contrast with compassion). It also depends on seeing the body as attractive (and overlooking its unattractive nature). Also fantasy is necessary not only when you are trying to seduce someone, but the act itself is built on fantasy, role playing, craving and self view, and the pleasure experienced plants the seed for future desires to arise which become a source of pain unless you continue to engage in sexual , an endless cycle.

By the way, i am not completely celibate yet, but the more i practice, the more i see sex as hindrance to practice. At least i stop rationalize it as being "natural" or "normal" which i hope can be a good start.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:56 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:24 pm
justindesilva wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:41 pm
Lord buddha before being enlightened was not a celibate but lived with princess yasodara and had a son Rahula. Later one of her major desciples Visaka who gave birth to 20 children was a sotapanna. Millionaire( situ) Anathapindika was a sotapanna along with his daughters and were having family lives to have had children.
So it is my belief when lord budda preached the ills of sex for one to follow celibacy, it is for those who were aiming to reach nirvana as with a mind of sexual pleasures ones mind is totally clouded .
This is why lord budda laid the 3 rd precept. Even in parabhava and Sigalovada suttas meant for lay people they were not advised to be celbates but were advised not to mis use sexual pleasures .Not to mis use means sexual acts to be properly used as a necessity. The necessity is if this world is to continue propagation is necessary. But the highest goal to be achieved is nibbana.
(This is my view open to be corrected.)
The Buddha's life before enlightenment, at least in my mind, serves to indicate his love for the truth and the sacrifices he made to go and search for an end of suffering. It is telling us that he had a lot to lose (from worldly perspective) and yet, he decided to leave everything behind, so its not a prescriptive of how life should be lived but quite the opposite (hence he left it behind).


But when you observe the mind states which leads to sexual acts, you might find that they represent everything the Buddha came to eliminate. For example, it involved viewing the other as an object for desire or as a mean to generate sensual pleasure (in contrast with compassion). It also depends on seeing the body as attractive (and overlooking its unattractive nature). Also fantasy is necessary not only when you are trying to seduce someone, but the act itself is built on fantasy, role playing, craving and self view, and the pleasure experienced plants the seed for future desires to arise which become a source of pain unless you continue to engage in sexual , an endless cycle.

By the way, i am not completely celibate yet, but the more i practice, the more i see sex as hindrance to practice. At least i stop rationalize it as being "natural" or "normal" which i hope can be a good start.
Thank you Bundojki
Your answer in this post here indicates a bare truth that the sexual conduct of men and women are totally egoistic where compassion and maithri is not exposed .
It is much easier for a celibate to be more compassionate to the world and society. And of course from the character of Siddartha we can see that he was compelled to get married by his parents.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by 2600htz » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:22 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:36 am
2600htz wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:24 pm
Hello:

It depends on a lot of aspects.

But some times people maintain celibacy for wrong reasons: to hide a pedophile inclination, porn and masturbation addiction, mental illness, fear of the opposite sex, lack of status and low self esteem, etc.

Regards.
Everything can be done for the wrong reasons, but i fail to see how engaging in sexual activities can be done for the "right reasons" from a Buddhist perspective!
Hello:

I do not say that sexual activity is not a fetter from a Buddhist perspective, but i do see some danger talking about celibacy to lay people, because it can lead to certain problems.

Regards.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by auto » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:28 pm

Originally there is no sex difference, what the body will have shown up comes out later. Also body doesn't need food, but because of eating food craving arises and we will need eat again..
The way is going back to original nature.

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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:37 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:28 pm

The way is going back to original nature.
Digha Nikaya 27 - Agañña Sutta

Then those beings feasting on this rice in the clearings, feeding on it, nourished by it, so continued for a long long while. And in measure as they, thus feeding, went on existing, so did the bodies of those beings become even more solid, and the divergence in their comeliness more pronounced. In the female appeared the distinctive features of the female, in the male those of the male. Then truly did woman contemplate man too closely, and man, woman. In them contemplating over much the one the other, passion arose and burning entered their body. They in consequence thereof followed their lusts. And beings seeing them so doing threw, some, sand, some, ashes, some, cowdung, crying: Perish, foul one! Perish, foul one! How can a being treat a being so? Even so now when men, in certain districts, when a bride is led away, throw either sand, or ashes, or cowdung, they do but follow an ancient enduring primordial form, not recognizing the significance thereof.

That which was reckoned immoral at that time, Vāseṭṭha, is now reckoned to be moral.

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn27

:anjali:
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Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by archaic » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:23 am

Why is celibacy for a layperson a big deal at all?

It's all about encouraging an accurate mindset of the concept. No need for repression or unhealthy techniques to suppress. Some of people in this thread seem to suggest that sex is such a powerfully good thing it has to be inherently stressful to give up. I disagree.

It's all about encouraging the proper, realistic, mindset of the subject. Sex is not inherently beautiful or wonderful or amazing, etc. unless one focuses one's perceptions on these concepts. It is really not unrealistic for any layperson to give up sex & self-pleasure once they expose themselves to the true realities of the subject.

Personally, I used to be extremely sex driven. By observing my attraction to the other sex I noticed myself and most of us (especially in Western society) are so used to seeing sexuality with rose-coloured glasses we ignore any relevant negatives just out of habit. Literally we are **choosing** our perceptions of sex to be super positive.

Of course, there are opposing forces to deconditioning this tendency. For example, it is our biological tendency to view sex as inherently good. Also prevailing social tendencies brainwash people into this mindset (ie./ advertisements selling sex, people everywhere chattering and obsessed with dating and/or sex as a measure of their self-worth, younger and younger people dressing as provocatively as possible, birth control allowing extremely frivolous sexual choices, pornography being incredibly prevalent, even romantic novels like Shades of Grey, etc.)

But one can provide "counter-arguments" to this one-sided sexual positivity brainwashing. The traditional Buddhist meditations on foulness and the body parts are recommended as cures for sensual lust... I tried them and found them mildly effective.

I am frequently around attractive women in my day-to-day life. So when exposed to beautiful women I began trying to visualize them only as their skeletons so as to de-sexualize them and see them as simply human beings.

I later moved to a more graphic practice. It was to view attractive women as piles of discoordinated bodyparts (ie./ if you saw a Porsche 911 and took it apart, and laid all the pieces on display from car doors to windows to motor oil, gas, exhaust, paint, etc.). One person sees a beautiful person, I would see masses of living parts, splayed out in messy dripping piles of organs, tissues, and decaying organic matter.

There was a famous quote by some Buddhist monastic who said something like if you were flipped inside-out, with all your organs exposed and juices dribbing and dripping everywhere, with all of the smells and horrible sights... Even your mother wouldn't want to be anywhere near you.

I found these techniques were quite useful, but one can get more graphic for the modern age if one is overcome with desire:
-try spending some quality time looking at close-up medical pictures of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (for both sexes)
-look at statistics (ie./ did you know 80 million Americans... 1/4 of the population haveHPV virus which causes warts on the genitals, and even cancer?)
-watch YouTube videos of surgeries and diseased organ-removals on the bodyparts
-look at real anatomy pictures of humans
-observe cadaver or medical examiner photos
-or for the social implications watch one of those Netflix documentaries on the life-after-porn, or the one about Rocco (a retired porn star, who explains the negative aftermath of his addiction to sex)

These certainly act as reminders that flesh is flesh, desire is ugly, it's not inherently good or wonderful.. In fact some aspects can be soberingly grotesque. I found these things can be a useful cure for all this sex-positivity programming.

What is sex really? One just needs to frequently remind oneself of the less-romantic realities of the shoving engorged organs within mucous-dripping organs.

In the Atthakavagga Buddha said he would not go near one of the most beautiful women in the whole land, who was sought after by kings...
"How would I then wish to touch this bag full of excrement and urine, even with the tip of my foot?"

Or similarly, if you saw a dog on the street, what are the chances you would want to touch it's anus or genitals? Probably not likely... However the reality is that the dog's parts are likely cleaner than many humans, because the dog licks them frequently, at the first sign of odour, and his/her saliva is anti-bacterial.

Disgusting? Yes. It's meant to be. Question your fixations.

Sex is *not* inherently good, it's our perceptions which are drawn to this concept, but our perceptions are deluded and draw us away from the truth. It doesn't need to be stressful to be celibate. In fact, by proclaiming the difficulty of this endeavour, one is doing a disservice to those who might be better encouraged to give it a try, so they can see the benefits.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

auto
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by auto » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:30 pm

Many methods but the best is what liberate you from unconscious thinking and action when not being aware of crucial turning points where could see craving and the way to end it.
Life is like a dynamo and there is electrical spark happen and chain reactions.

The dynamo happens all the time when we breath or with sense organs we look at objects and into sky(space nothing at all) back and worth, it cultivates the mind substance, it comes sensible and then seeing atractive form it gets attached and sensual warmth happens, and here when you can recognize it as your mind you can also locate the leakage in lower abdomen and once you notice it(happens automatically) the craving stops.
It is of course more steps and difficult and can spawn of entire year, before you can get into lower abdomen cavity.

Subtle substance what breath cultivates and it follows the breath, it can be manually cultivated by breath control methods to get access to head..substance will go all states and forms, all kinds of sleep states..
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Anyways the point is the biological instincts can be matured and overcome by knowing how to cultivate and awoke craving or lust manually. Like cat doesn't need to see a mouse to evoke the form of a hunter and know the moves.

But external forms; others, it is other principle in play, it affects the body and it depends the power in body. Our own mind wise we can remove delusion pretty much instantly by will if we are aware, but there is also cavity in lower abdomen in the body and besides body there are also others who can afflict you because they don't cultivate the way..

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archaic
Posts: 41
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Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada

Re: Celibacy as a lay person and kamma

Post by archaic » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:49 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:30 pm
sensual warmth happens, and here when you can recognize it as your mind you can also locate the leakage in lower abdomen and once you notice it(happens automatically) the craving stops.
It is of course more steps and difficult and can spawn of entire year, before you can get into lower abdomen cavity.
Can you describe this in more detail? I am interested.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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