What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

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SarathW
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What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:45 am

What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?
And what is their relation to Jhana?
I appreciate if you can explain this in both Sutta jhana (four fold) and Abhidhamm (five fold) formula.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:40 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:45 am
What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?
And what is their relation to Jhana?
I appreciate if you can explain this in both Sutta jhana (four fold) and Abhidhamm (five fold) formula.
As I am not an expert on jhana may I refer this as:
These terms are in reference with meditation whereas vitakka is application of a thought. After vitakka is the step of vicara ( self argumentative application or sustenance). Once the thought (signal) is sustained the stage of not thinking ( avitakka) arrives and is a jhana ( absorption in a signal or thougt) to rapt the meditator in the stage of piti . This is a jhana but keeps the mind relaxed not going in to other thoughts. The next stage is savitakka ( fixed thought or signal) that is also citta ekaggata and or samadhi( one pointedness) of the mind in a thought. This brings in " sukha" which is total relaxation of the mind. ( please also read avitakka sutta).
In fact these three terms vitakka ( application) avitakka
(not thinking of a signal) and savitakka ( engaging the mind on a fixed thought or signal) are stages of jhana ( absorbtion in thought) of the mind getting in to one pointedness or samadhi in stages during meditation often easily observed in anspanasathi or maithri bhavana.
With metta.

DooDoot
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Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:09 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:45 am
What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?
And what is their relation to Jhana?
I appreciate if you can explain this in both Sutta jhana (four fold) and Abhidhamm (five fold) formula.
Searching Sutta Central can find these words:
Āraddhaṃ kho pana me, brāhmaṇa, vīriyaṃ ahosi asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ. So kho ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihāsiṃ. Vitak­ka­vicārā­naṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihāsiṃ. Pītiyāvirāgā upekkhako ca vihāsiṃ, sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedesiṃ; yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihāsiṃ. Sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanas­sa­do­manas­sā­naṃ atthaṅgamā aduk­kha­ma­su­khaṃ upekkhā­sati­pāri­suddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihāsiṃ.

savitakka
adjective
accompanied by reasoning

Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified.

“Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

“With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, I entered upon and abided in the second jhāna, which has self-confidence and singleness of mind without applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of concentration.

“With the fading away as well of rapture, I abided in equanimity, and mindful and fully aware, still feeling pleasure with the body, I entered upon and abided in the third jhāna, on account of which noble ones announce: ‘He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful.’

“With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, I entered upon and abided in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

https://suttacentral.net/define/savitakka

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:48 pm

A very popular monk (Walasmulle Abhaya) in Sri Lanka teaches like this.
Is this incorrect?
This appears incorrect. How do you rectify it?


=========

First Jhana = Savitakka (Vitakka), Savicara (vicara),Pithy,Sukaha,Ekagata
Second Jhana = Savitakka (avitakka), Savicara (avicara),Pithy,Sukaha,Ekagata
Third Jhana = Savitakka (avitakka), Savicara (avicara),Sukaha,Ekagata
Fourth Jhana = Savitakka (avitakka), Savicara (avicara),Ekagata
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 8747
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:54 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

DooDoot
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:09 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:48 pm
A very popular monk (Walasmulle Abhaya) in Sri Lanka teaches like this.
Is this incorrect? This appears incorrect. How do you rectify it?
Its appears correct but unnecessary.

SarathW
Posts: 8747
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:37 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:09 pm
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:48 pm
A very popular monk (Walasmulle Abhaya) in Sri Lanka teaches like this.
Is this incorrect? This appears incorrect. How do you rectify it?
Its appears correct but unnecessary.
Have a closer look.
It seems incorrect.

This is how it should be the way I understand.

First Jhana = Savitakka (Vitakka), Savicara (vicara),Pithy,Sukaha,Ekagata
Second Jhana = avitakka, avicara,Pithy,Sukaha,Ekagata
Third Jhana = Sukaha,Ekagata
Fourth Jhana =Ekagata
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 8747
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:15 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

DooDoot
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:18 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:37 pm
Second Jhana = avitakka, avicara,Pithy,Sukaha,Ekagata
Its irrelevant, unnecessary & redundant. It does not matter.

justindesilva
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by justindesilva » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:02 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:48 pm
A very popular monk (Walasmulle Abhaya) in Sri Lanka teaches like this.
Is this incorrect?
This appears incorrect. How do you rectify it?


=========

First Jhana = Savitakka (Vitakka), Savicara (vicara),Pithy,Sukaha,Ekagata
Second Jhana = Savitakka (avitakka), Savicara (avicara),Pithy,Sukaha,Ekagata
Third Jhana = Savitakka (avitakka), Savicara (avicara),Sukaha,Ekagata
Fourth Jhana = Savitakka (avitakka), Savicara (avicara),Ekagata
From the instructions I had obtained the 5 jhana factors in meditation are
vitakka application of a thought signal( nimitta , eg: breath) 1st stage
vicara sustennance of the thought , 2nd stage
piti ( joy) the stage of not changing the thought 3rd stage
sukha ( pleaure of relaxation) 4 th stage
citta ekaggattha ( samadhi) or one pointedness of mind.5th stage.
Here I bellieve that vitakka is the 1st stage, 2nd and 3rd stages to be avitakka ( not thinking)
At the 4th stage the mind is fixed ( savitakka) on a single object or thought. which brings into samadhi or chitta ekaggata (5th stage)
This amounts to purifying the mind from klesha defilements ( lobha, dvesha, moha) like letting a soiled jug of water by keeping it to clear.
The cleared jug of water as an example is similar to the mind clear of defilements. ( or the samadhi ) .
We cannot have a clear indication of the time these occur as jhana ( abssorption) of thoughts in to the mind depend on the state of the mind of the meditator with defilements.
If an experienced monk or priest explains matters it is better for us to further analyse.

SarathW
Posts: 8747
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:06 am

At the 4th stage the mind is fixed ( savitakka) on a single object or thought.
The way I understand the Vitakka and Savitakka are the same meaning.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by justindesilva » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:06 am
At the 4th stage the mind is fixed ( savitakka) on a single object or thought.
The way I understand the Vitakka and Savitakka are the same meaning.
Hi Sarath,
May I say that when you say vitakka and savitakka are the same it is not totally correct.
Vitakka is the initial stage of applying a thought or signal.
Having applied a signal or thought , we need an effort in retaining the signal or thought. It is not always that the one who meditates retains the thought until samadhi.
Hence at the stage of application the thought is vitakka and once it has been successfully retained it is savitakka ( fixed thought).
It needs an effort to retain a thought with the mind as the mind by nature changes from one sense to another within the five senses.

SarathW
Posts: 8747
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Vitakka, Avitakka and Savitakka according to Sutta?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:18 am

once it has been successfully retained it is savitakka ( fixed thought)
It appears this is the understanding of some Sri Lankan teachers.
But there is not Sutta support for this.

The way I understand it Vitakka is the noun and Savitakka is the adjective.
I am waiting for an answer from Ven. Dhammanando.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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