What would a sotapanna do?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Saengnapha
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Saengnapha »

auto wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:29 pm
Saengnapha wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:20 am
These kinds of dilemmas make people nuts.
better than others make you nuts by being overly casual during serious matters.
[/quote]

I strongly doubt if I'm making Doo Doot nuts by being tongue in cheek. He's a big boy and very sharp. He's put in a lot of work.
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Circle5
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Circle5 »

LG2V wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:30 am I would imagine that a sotapanna, being possessed of a somewhat constant understanding of the impermanence of things, would be able to get over things quickly. Such a person would likely be too happy and too detached to have the amount of strong hatred needed to intentionally kill someone. Similar cases for other violations of precepts, especially their grosser forms.


I may be wrong, but I think that stream-entry is common and attainable in this modern age. I think that anyone who practices Mahasi-style dry insight meditation long and hard enough would attain stream entry. I'm confident that other meditation practices lead there as well.
There are hundreds of cases of people attaining stream entry in the suttas. There are even instances where they explain how they did it. You will never find a single one that involves meditation. Stream entry is achieved through a different method.

Also, Mahasi meditation is hindu-style meditation that is very different from the 16th steps buddhist meditation called Anapanasanti. According to the suttas, there is no need either for Anapanasanti or hindu meditation to attain stream entry. Trying to do 8th step of the path before doing the first is like trying to build the roof of a house before building the house. Sure there will be some benefits, but the overall work will not be efficient. So it would be good for one to do the first step: attaing stream entry, and only then maybe try to do meditation.
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LG2V
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by LG2V »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:55 am
dylanj wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:42 amI don't understand what you mean.
These monks are obviously killing many living creatures while they sweep. Whilst it can be claimed the killing is unintentional; such a claim would be extremely negligent; since it is quite obvious sweeping the path kills living creatures, such as ants. Its like driving a large truck without breaks and then claiming you didn't intend to kill the people that were killed when the truck crashed into a shopping mall.
I don't remember the exact quote, but I do remember that it is not considered a fault in the vinaya for monks to unintentionally kill insects via sweeping.
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DooDoot
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by DooDoot »

Saengnapha wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:20 amThese kinds of dilemmas make people nuts.
I discern no dilemma. A child has a dangerous worm; a sotappana promptly acts to deactivate the worm. The sotappana is unaffected by their action, apart from rejoicing in the well-being & safety of the child.

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Saengnapha
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Saengnapha »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:02 am
Saengnapha wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:20 amThese kinds of dilemmas make people nuts.
I discern no dilemma. A child has a dangerous worm; a sotappana promptly acts to deactivate the worm. The sotappana is unaffected by their action, apart from rejoicing in the well-being & safety of the child.

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I don't discern any dilemma, either! Obviously, some do.
D1W1
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by D1W1 »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:25 pm I would say Sotapanna will give some medication to the child to get rid of the worms.
The intention is to cure a child.
But that is still killing. You can't kill a being with a good intention.
I had a discussion with a Buddhist monk the other day and I thought I would like to share with you all in this forum, but I'm not sure with his answer therefore I created this thread.
According to him, a sotapanna will let the child die, he will not break the precept of killing, his precept is not broken, not spotted, not blemished (A.N 9.27), the same also with a person who wants to perfect his parami, he will not break the precept. The deadly worm and the child obviously have karmic relationship with each other hence everyone is the owner of their own karma.
SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:25 pm My understanding is Sotapanna can break the five precepts but with the knowledge.
In Buddhism a person breaking precepts without knowing is inferior.
But the sutta doesn't say that. Breaking the precept with condition is still breaking, blemished, not consistent and defective.
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by SarathW »

But the sutta doesn't say that.
Yes, there is a Sutta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by SarathW »

According to him, a sotapanna will let the child die
Will that monk do the same for himself?
Will he die without taking medicine if he got an infection due to worms?
This is not accordance with Buddha's teaching.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by DooDoot »

D1W1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:55 amBut that is still killing. You can't kill a being with a good intention.
Of course you can. Killing to save a life.

D1W1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:55 amAccording to him, a sotapanna will let the child die.
To me, this monk creates ill-repute towards the Buddha-Dhamma. The Buddha said "kamma is intention" and I doubt worms have any intentions because they are probably programmed to act in a fixed way. Have you ever seen a worm demonstrate greed, hatred & delusion? Or do worms simply act the same way, always?
D1W1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:55 amThe deadly worm and the child obviously have karmic relationship with each other hence everyone is the owner of their own karma.
According to the suttas, this is ignoble speech, because the monk has no evidence for this.
2. NOBLE & IGNOBLE WAYS OF SPEAKING

Bhikkhus, there are these eight kinds of anariyavohara (ignoble ways of speaking). What are the eight kinds? The eight kinds are:
the tendency to speak of having seen things that have not (really) been seen;
the tendency to speak of having heard things that have not (really) been heard;
the tendency to speak of having experienced things that have not (really) been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having realized things that have not (really) been realized;

the tendency to speak of having not seen things that have been seen;
the tendency to speak of having not heard things that have been heard;
the tendency to speak of having not experienced things that have been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having not realized things that have been realized.

Bhikkhus, these are the eight anariyavohara.

Bhikkhus, there are these eight kinds of ariyavohara (noble ways of speaking). What are the eight kinds? The eight kinds are:
the tendency to speak of having not seen things that have not been seen;
the tendency to speak of having not heard things that have not been heard;
the tendency to speak of having not experienced things that have not been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having not realized things that have not been realized;

the tendency to speak of having seen things that have (really) been seen;
the tendency to speak of having heard things that have (really) been heard;
the tendency to speak of having experienced things that have (really) been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having realized things that have (truly) been realized.
Bhikkhus, these are the eight ariyavohara.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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D1W1
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by D1W1 »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:19 am
According to him, a sotapanna will let the child die
Will that monk do the same for himself?
Will he die without taking medicine if he got an infection due to worms?
This is not accordance with Buddha's teaching.
He didn't say he is a sotapanna but he says a sotapanna will not kill any being because of his perfect morality, that is perfection in sila. Arahat has perfect sila, samadhi and wisdom. Why it's not accordance with Buddha's teaching, can you elaborate what do you mean by "not broken, not defective, not spotted, consistent, not blemished"?
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DooDoot
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by DooDoot »

D1W1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:07 amHe didn't say he is a sotapanna but he says a sotapanna will not kill any being because of his perfect morality, that is perfection in sila.
A puthujjana (unenlightened) monk cannot know the mind of a sotappana or the essence (heartwood) of the suttas. The suttas say:
So this holy life, bhikkhus, does not have gain, honour, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of virtue for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakeable deliverance of mind that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood, and its end.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn29
Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind [i.e., painful feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there], developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by using? Reflecting wisely, he uses the medicinal requisites only for protection from arisen afflicting feelings and for the benefit of good health.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn2
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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D1W1
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by D1W1 »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:33 am ... which it seems to be (me, googling 'how to get rid of tapeworms without killing them' lol)
We all do that :jumping:
Dhammarakkhito wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:33 am it would be better to actually get to sotāpanna than to speculate about what actions in hyperspecific thought experiments are deemed
developing intention and irreversibility of harmlessness; let's focus on that
I think that's a good idea and practical too, I would say. Attain the holiness ourselves rather than speculating. You remind me of someone who told me, neither Dhamma nor panna/wisdom is intellectual that's why it's called lokuttara Dhamma.
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DooDoot
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by DooDoot »

D1W1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:17 amI think that's a good idea and practical too, I would say. Attain the holiness ourselves rather than speculating.
Following or clinging to the path of the Jains won't reach Buddhist holiness. :roll: Instead, letting a child die from a deadly worm is likely to get you psychiatrically certified or otherwise imprisoned; where you can purse enlightenment while being raped or assaulted by other prisoners who rape & assault child killers & pedophiles.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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D1W1
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by D1W1 »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:56 am Of course you can. Killing to save a life.


No, you simply can't. Killing and saving lives are two different things.
When you kill, you sow the seed of killing, you will reap the result of killing which is obviously unpleasant result. You can't get wholesome result from killing. For a monastic member, killing is very serious offence (parajika), he has to disrobe and will never be able to be ordained anymore.
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DooDoot
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by DooDoot »

D1W1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:25 amWhen you kill, you sow the seed of killing, you will reap the result of killing which is obviously unpleasant result. You can't get wholesome result from killing.
Wrong:
Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The painful feeling is described as the only certain result from necessary killing & painful feeling without attachment is said to be liberation or Nibbana. The sotappana can give a child medicine to kill a worm without attachment.
D1W1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:25 amFor a monastic member, killing is very serious offence (parajika), he has to disrobe and will never be able to be ordained anymore.
Wrong. Monks aren't disrobed for killing worms & Buddhist laypeople can kill people in self-defense if they choose.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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