What would a sotapanna do?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
D1W1
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:52 am

What would a sotapanna do?

Post by D1W1 »

Hi all,

There are many arguments whether a sotapanna has a perfect morality/sila or not. But let's base this discussion on this Sutta:
With what four factors of a stream enterer is he endowed?

...Is endowed with virtues that are not broken, not defective, not spotted, consistent, not blemished, not enslaved, praised by the wise as conducive to concentration and desired by the noble ones He is endowed with these four factors of a stream enterer....
(Anguttara Nikaya 9.27)
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html
Now, for example, a deadly worm is in the stomach of a sotapanna's child. The only thing to help his child is to kill the worm otherwise his child will die. With his perfect morality, what would a sotapanna do, will a sotapanna (naturally) let his child die?

Any thought will be great, thanks!
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by cappuccino »

how immoral is it?

(doesn't seem very immoral)
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Zom »

Now, for example, a deadly worm is in the stomach of a sotapanna's child. The only thing to help his child is to kill the worm otherwise his child will die. With his perfect morality, what would a sotapanna do, will a sotapanna (naturally) let his child die?
Suttas posit, that a stream-winner can't kill (100% impossibility) two beings: a) his father b) his mother. That's it 8-)
Suttas posit, that an arahant can't kill any type/kind of being at all.
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

Zom wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:03 pm
Now, for example, a deadly worm is in the stomach of a sotapanna's child. The only thing to help his child is to kill the worm otherwise his child will die. With his perfect morality, what would a sotapanna do, will a sotapanna (naturally) let his child die?
Suttas posit, that a stream-winner can't kill (100% impossibility) two beings: a) his father b) his mother. That's it 8-)
Suttas posit, that an arahant can't kill any type/kind of being at all.
woah, woah, ok, can i have a source for that if you have time
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Circle5 »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:10 pm
Zom wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:03 pm
Now, for example, a deadly worm is in the stomach of a sotapanna's child. The only thing to help his child is to kill the worm otherwise his child will die. With his perfect morality, what would a sotapanna do, will a sotapanna (naturally) let his child die?
Suttas posit, that a stream-winner can't kill (100% impossibility) two beings: a) his father b) his mother. That's it 8-)
Suttas posit, that an arahant can't kill any type/kind of being at all.
woah, woah, ok, can i have a source for that if you have time
Yes he is correct. Check the "6 actions that can not be commited by a sotapanna": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81 ... _committed

I know it always comes as a shock since it is contrary to the modern trend of arahantification of stream entry. Another thing that is even a bigger shock is how exactly is stream entry achieved. There are hundreds of cases of people attaining stream entry in the suttas and all did it in the same way. Not a single one did it differently.

Yet, few people had the curiosity to browse the suttas and see how is stream entry actually achieved and either expect it has something to do with meditation or expect it's something that will happen on it's own, almost against one's will, because that's what "western folk buddism" or "meditation center buddhism" popular opinions are.
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

ok, i have suttas to support my view if i need to go get them, and that is a wikipedia article? doesnt say those are 6 defining criteria, just that sotāpanna wouldnt do them, which is obvious because confirmed confidence and also commitment to non-killing
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by SarathW »

I would say Sotapanna will give some medication to the child to get rid of the worms.
The intention is to cure a child.
My understanding is Sotapanna can break the five precepts but with the knowledge.
In Buddhism a person breaking precepts without knowing is inferior.

We had a very long discussion in the following thread.


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14256&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Circle5 »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:59 pm ok, i have suttas to support my view if i need to go get them, and that is a wikipedia article? doesnt say those are 6 defining criteria, just that sotāpanna wouldnt do them, which is obvious because confirmed confidence and also commitment to non-killing
It was the easiest link to find, they say the same thing in the suttas. Stream enterer would never kill mother and father, while only arahant would not kill anyone. There was even a case of a military commander that was a stream enterer, and in those days that meant body-to-body contact using swords.

There is no sutta claiming a stream enterer would not kill anyone, such as an Arahant would not do.
perkele
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by perkele »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:59 pmdoesnt say those are 6 defining criteria, just that sotāpanna wouldnt do them
But why would the Buddha iterate and emphasize exactly these specific impossibilities - including just three specific impossible cases of killing (one's own mother, one's own father, or an arahat)? Why would he not simply say instead that it is impossible for a sotapanna to intentionally kill any living being? It would have been much shorter and much clearer, with no room for doubt or speculation about other specific instances of killing.

There are a number of locations where these and other impossibilities (aṭṭhāna) are enumerated within the suttas. Here is one: Suttas AN 1.268 to AN 1.275 list altogether 9 things which a person of right view is incapable of thinking or doing. AN 1.271 to AN 1.273 are about impossible instances of killing:
AN 1.271-273 wrote:271. "Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a person who came to right view should destroy the life of his mother. It is possible that an ordinary person should destroy the life of his mother.

272. "Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a person who came to right view should destroy the life of his father. It is possible that an ordinary person should destroy the life of his father.

273. "Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a person who came to right view should destroy the life of an arahant. It is possible that an ordinary person should destroy the life of an arahant.
The same (or parts thereof) occurs also somewhere in AN 6.7, and in MN 115, and maybe elsewhere.

Why reiterate several times these specific instances of killing (among other things), if it would have been much shorter, clearer and easier to remember to simply say: "Sotapannas are incapable of killing living beings"?

Here this reasoning was contradicted by an abhidhammika (theY) who states that it is categorically impossible for a sotapanna to intentionally kill any living being, and at first I found it convincing. But I don't know from where he draws that certainty. (Here this understanding was questioned before, here it was stated again by Bhikkhu Pesala (the abhidhammika view: sotapanna cannot kill), ... looks like there have been quite a number of discussions with largely unmoved viewpoints about this here over time.)

On the other hand, as Circle5 mentioned:
Circle5 wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:24 pmThere is no sutta claiming a stream enterer would not kill anyone, such as an Arahant would not do.
, there are such impossibilities about arahats listed in the suttas as well. And they do include the impossibility of intentionally killing any living being.

I would draw the conclusion from that that this is a difference between sotapannas and arahats: the degree of unwholesome actions they are still capable of doing, including a difference in possibilities of killing (arahat can't kill any living being intentionally, sotapanna cannot kill some special class of beings). Because why else would the enumerations in the suttas of impossibilities regarding killing differ between sotapanna and arahat?
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

this makes the case very clearly to me https://meditationexplorer.files.wordpr ... sion-2.pdf
Attachments
Screen Shot 2018-01-13 at 18.24.36.png
Screen Shot 2018-01-13 at 18.24.36.png (20.84 KiB) Viewed 2759 times
Screen Shot 2018-01-13 at 18.25.01.png
Screen Shot 2018-01-13 at 18.25.01.png (67.58 KiB) Viewed 2759 times
Screen Shot 2018-01-13 at 18.25.13.png
Screen Shot 2018-01-13 at 18.25.13.png (97.1 KiB) Viewed 2759 times
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

if we look at the question in this way, then we get some unsavory results. whether or not a stream winner would or wouldn't do something, is the removal of a tapeworm killing, which it seems to be (me, googling 'how to get rid of tapeworms without killing them' lol)
it would be better to actually get to sotāpanna than to speculate about what actions in hyperspecific thought experiments are deemed
developing intention and irreversibility of harmlessness; let's focus on that
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
perkele
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by perkele »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:26 am this makes the case very clearly to me
That seems convincing.
However, one might say the same to this as you said above about the list of impossibilities (which only lists specific cases of killing as impossible for a sotapanna), only in reverse:
Dhammarakkhito wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:59 pmdoesnt say those are 6 defining criteria, just that sotāpanna wouldnt do them
(In other words, we can't be sure that those 6 criteria are sufficient conditions for sotapanna-hood.)

Reversing this, one could say about the criteria for proclaiming stream-entry by onself:
Doesn't say that those criteria for one who would proclaim stream-entry by himself are defining criteria for a stream-entrant, just that one who wouldn't do them is definitely a stream-entrant.
(In other words, we can't be sure that the criteria for proclaiming stream-entry by oneself are necessary conditions for sotapanna-hood.)

It looks like we are left with some ambiguity here.
Dhammarakkhito wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:33 amit would be better to actually get to sotāpanna than to speculate about what actions in hyperspecific thought experiments are deemed developing intention and irreversibility of harmlessness; let's focus on that
Sounds sensible. Being absolutely harmless is the goal, but it might not be possible from the outset. (Negligent manslaughter by non-intervention does not seem more harmless to me than accepting tapeworm-slaughter as side-effect from intervention.)
Last edited by perkele on Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

i think i know what you're saying, but the fivefold dread being allayed is one part and the four limbs is another. you have to have both
and when you have both you can declare yourself a stream enterer
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

i don't imagine the buddha would have overstated the necessary conditions :tongue:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Circle5 »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:33 am if we look at the question in this way, then we get some unsavory results. whether or not a stream winner would or wouldn't do something, is the removal of a tapeworm killing, which it seems to be (me, googling 'how to get rid of tapeworms without killing them' lol)
it would be better to actually get to sotāpanna than to speculate about what actions in hyperspecific thought experiments are deemed
developing intention and irreversibility of harmlessness; let's focus on that
In order to "focus on that", one as to know how such a thing is achieved. There are hundreds of cases of people in the suttas attaining stream entry. All did it the same way, none did it in a different way.

The starting point is to find out how people did it in the suttas, otherwise one could lose time doing the wrong things at the wrong time, trying to build the roof before the house, etc.
Post Reply