What would a sotapanna do?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:54 am

:soap:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

D1W1
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by D1W1 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:32 am
D1W1 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:31 am
We are talking about Buddha's path, right?
No, imo, you are not talking about the Buddhist path but you appear to be talking about the Jain path. I am quoting the Buddhist path but you appear to refuse to acknowledge the Buddhist path. Instead, you appear to be clinging to rules & precepts unskillfully, which is a fetter to stream-entry.
I can see where you are coming from.
A certain amount of clinging is necessary to enter the path, otherwise you will get nowhere in the practice. Once you attain the shore you will no longer need to carry the raft.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:32 am
Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind [i.e., painful feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there], developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

Lonaphala Sutta: The Salt Crystal
You are confusing yourself, but I appreciate your thoughts. No offence but good luck with that. Hopefully, it will get you closer to the end of suffering.

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DooDoot
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:24 am

D1W1 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:41 am
In the Buddha's teaching there is no justification for killing, there is no holy killing [a stomach worm or other internal parasite on medical grounds].
Please provide a quote from the suttas supporting this. Thanks

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DooDoot
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:49 am

D1W1 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:12 am
I appreciate your thoughts.
Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, a brahman by birth, didn’t want to rinse
himself after defecating, (thinking,) “Who would touch this vile, stinking stuff?”
A worm took up residence in his anus. So he told this matter to the bhikkhus.
“You mean you don’t rinse yourself after defecating?” (they asked). “That’s
right, my friends.” Those bhikkhus who were of few wants … criticized and
complained and spread it about, “How can a bhikkhu not rinse himself after
defecating?” They reported this matter to the Blessed One ….

:jumping:

D1W1
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by D1W1 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:03 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:54 am
D1W1 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:41 am
In the Buddha's teaching there is no justification for killing, there is no holy killing [a stomach worm or other internal parasite on medical grounds].
Please provide a quote from the suttas supporting this. Thanks
Generally speaking, we all do kill worms if they're threatening our lives, we are common wordlings/puthujjana. We break precept from time to time, we try to do our best, that's all we can do.
As for holy killing, you simply can't find it in the teaching of Buddha. I can quote almost everything from the Sutta.
AFAIK Bacterias, viruses are not considered sentient beings otherwise we have to cover our nose like Jains.
No offence, I repeat, no offence intended but most westerners tend to think academically/scientifically, treat spirituality just like science. While theory could be a good thing but we also need to balance it out with the (sincere) practice, otherwise it's just another type of science. I am not saying I am perfect, I am still learning, that's why I am here.

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DooDoot
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:10 pm

D1W1 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:03 pm
Generally speaking, we all do kill worms if they're threatening our lives, we are common wordlings/puthujjana.
I suggest this may possibly be false speech. It is more proper to say: "Generally speaking, I do kill worms if they're threatening my life, I am a common wordling/puthujjana".
D1W1 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:03 pm
As for holy killing, you simply can't find it in the teaching of Buddha. I can quote almost everything from the Sutta.
You mean you can't find a sutta teaching for or against killing an intestinal worm, including also in the Vinaya?
D1W1 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:03 pm
I am not saying I am perfect
So you are claiming Ajahn Chah (who was suspected an arahant) committed an offense below, similar to arranging an abortion for a feminist groupie?

:strawman: :jedi:
73. The fool seeks undeserved reputation, precedence among monks, authority over monasteries, and honor among householders.

74. Let both laymen and monks think that it was done by me. In every work, great and small, let them follow me" — such is the ambition of the fool; thus his desire and pride increase.

Dhammapada


:pig: :thanks: :hello: :zzz:

auto
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by auto » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:43 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:56 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:29 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:20 am
These kinds of dilemmas make people nuts.
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:29 pm
better than others make you nuts by being overly casual during serious matters.
I strongly doubt if I'm making Doo Doot nuts by being tongue in cheek. He's a big boy and very sharp. He's put in a lot of work.
what i did is, i put the inverse part to your sentence.

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robertk
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by robertk » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:58 pm

You mean you can't find a sutta teaching for or against killing an intestinal worm, including also in the Vinaya?


So you are claiming Ajahn Chah (who was suspected an arahant) committed an offense below, similar to arranging an abortion for a feminist groupie
You ask Dw to give a Sutta quote, yet you use a story ( which is fine) about a recent monk?

Did you see the citation I gave earlier( from Buddhaghosa) where it states that a noble one including sotapanna would not even intentionally kill an ant..

It should also be noted that arranging an abortion - it being the killing of a human- is parijika for a bhikkhu. Killing an ant or worm is a less severe break of vinaya.

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seeker242
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by seeker242 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:29 pm

D1W1 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:03 pm
With his perfect morality, what would a sotapanna do, will a sotapanna (naturally) let his child die?
That would be tantamount to killing the child. A sotapanna would not kill a child!

D1W1
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by D1W1 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:54 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:33 am
it would be better to actually get to sotāpanna than to speculate about what actions in hyperspecific thought experiments
But the virtue of sotapanna as quoted previously is perfect, unblemised and not spotted. It doesn't leave any room for imperfection and speculation as clearly described in the sutta. Is it possible for a sotapanna to make other decision (not killing the deadly worm) without compromising the precepts?

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:39 am

ajahn suchart says parasitic worm not a being, it has no consciousness; it is not a sin to remove it
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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perkele
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by perkele » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:38 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:39 am
ajahn suchart says parasitic worm not a being, it has no consciousness; it is not a sin to remove it
A very arbitrary claim without substantiation.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:58 am

i have a little more faith than you in this monk who has been a monk for more than 40 years. just sharing his view because it is relevant, but you are not obligated to accept it :console:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Crazy cloud
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Re: What would a sotapanna do?

Post by Crazy cloud » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:00 am

D1W1 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:03 pm


Now, for example, a deadly worm is in the stomach of a sotapanna's child. The only thing to help his child is to kill the worm otherwise his child will die. With his perfect morality, what would a sotapanna do, will a sotapanna (naturally) let his child die?

Any thought will be great, thanks!
If the intention is to help the child I do not see unwholesomeness, but if the intention is to kill the worm, then it will be an unwholesome act ...

Haven't read the postings yet, just an answer out of my own mind now
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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