Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by binocular »

Greetings,

I noted this elsewhere:
binocular wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:52 pmI find it difficult to conceive of a Buddhism that is somehow separate from Asian cultures. I tend to think that Asians own the copyright to the Dhamma, so to speak. On the one hand, it seems silly to think so (and it makes Buddhism seem like just another tribal religion), but on the other hand, I don't know how to conceive of Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion (I can do it with Catholicism, though).
It seems easy enough to bring Buddhism out of Asia. But to take Asia out of Buddhism, not so much.
What am I missing?


Thanks.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Nicolas
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by Nicolas »

Dhamma is for everyone, it's truth, it's universal, and has nothing to do with Asia specifically.
The manifestation of Buddhism has been flavored with Asian things, both in the Buddha's time (where he talks about brahmans, jains, the caste system, rituals existing at the time, etc.) and in times since (because Buddhism has mainly propagated and survived in Asia).
SarathW
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by SarathW »

I can do it with Catholicism, though
It depends on which camp you are on.
As a Sri Lankan, I see Catholicism as a European invention. We see it as a political organisation.
However, for some reason, I see Islam is more supranational. It has less racial discrimination but much discrimination against gender.
Having said that if we practice the Buddhism to the letter it will be more supranational.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by Sam Vara »

Nicolas wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:51 pm Dhamma is for everyone, it's truth, it's universal, and has nothing to do with Asia specifically.
The manifestation of Buddhism has been flavored with Asian things, both in the Buddha's time (where he talks about brahmans, jains, the caste system, rituals existing at the time, etc.) and in times since (because Buddhism has mainly propagated and survived in Asia).
I have a great deal of respect for such an attitude to the Dhamma, but it might be useful in the context of the OP to mention the alternative. Richard Gombrich, for example, has consistently argued that it is impossible to correctly understand what the Buddha taught, without setting it in its specific historical and cultural context. It is, he argues, irremediably a product of a developing Indian culture, and only makes complete sense if seen as a response to Brahminism and Jainism, as well as specific social and economic conditions. The understandable desire to see Buddhism as an ahistorical universal truth has actually obscured the meaning of the early texts.

I suspect that whichever approach one takes is largely a matter of temperament and intellectual conditioning, but I personally have no problem with seeing Buddhism as Asian. That's where it started, and that's where it was preserved and developed for over two milennia. It might be difficult for me to get to grips with Indian thought, but then again it was difficult for my ancestors to get to grips with Greek thought and Eastern Mediterranean religious belief. Contact with Asian Buddhists has rarely been other than beneficial for me.
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Nicolas
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by Nicolas »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:26 pm [...]
I agree that to correctly understand, it has to be placed in its specific context, but I also think it's a case of the finger pointing at the moon, or the Buddha pointing at the Dhamma. The finger is Asian, but the moon is universal.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by Sam Vara »

Nicolas wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:26 pm [...]
I agree that to correctly understand, it has to be placed in its specific context, but I also think it's a case of the finger pointing at the moon, or the Buddha pointing at the Dhamma. The finger is Asian, but the moon is universal.
Yes, that's a nice way of putting it. We need to ensure that we understand those Asian finger gestures!
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Nicolas
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by Nicolas »

Agreed :-)
paul
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by paul »

There is a fundamental difference between east and west, the latter being concerned with the development of contents of the mind outwards into external material form, the former with moving inwards from material form to the development of consciousness (in both cases, form or 'body' constitutes the reference point). So Buddhism is an expression of the essence of the Asian temperament and it could never originate in the west, however it will develop there but the accent will be on infrastructure as we see with Ajahn Sumedho’s organization. With the future rise of India and Indonesia below China to world leadership status, European heritage will be subsumed and there will be global adoption of Asian values as the dominant ethos:

https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/issues/econom ... -2050.html

One of the big differences Asian values will bring is the change in the concept of what morality is to one of harmony with a moral cosmos:

The English word "morality" and its derivatives suggest a sense of obligation and constraint quite foreign to the Buddhist conception of sila; this connotation probably enters from the theistic background to Western ethics. Buddhism, with its non-theistic framework, grounds its ethics, not on the notion of obedience, but on that of harmony. In fact, the commentaries explain the word sila by another word, samadhana, meaning "harmony" or “coordination.”—“The Noble Eightfold Path”, Bikkhu Bodhi.
Last edited by paul on Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
chownah
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by chownah »

binocular wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:36 pm Greetings,

I noted this elsewhere:
binocular wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:52 pmI find it difficult to conceive of a Buddhism that is somehow separate from Asian cultures. I tend to think that Asians own the copyright to the Dhamma, so to speak. On the one hand, it seems silly to think so (and it makes Buddhism seem like just another tribal religion), but on the other hand, I don't know how to conceive of Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion (I can do it with Catholicism, though).
It seems easy enough to bring Buddhism out of Asia. But to take Asia out of Buddhism, not so much.
What am I missing?


Thanks.
Your post is just a sign that you have serious misunderstandings about what the buddha taught. Since it is a sign I will not try to explain it with common sense realism.
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Circle5
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by Circle5 »

The law of gravity or of thermodynamics works the same is asia or in europe, despite europeans inventing it. The way this world works is the same no matter the person who discovered it.

If Buddhism is correct, then it can be proven that it is so through debate, while other philosophies such as materialism, etc. should get refuted.
Saengnapha
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by Saengnapha »

Circle5 wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:48 am The law of gravity or of thermodynamics works the same is asia or in europe, despite europeans inventing it. The way this world works is the same no matter the person who discovered it.

If Buddhism is correct, then it can be proven that it is so through debate, while other philosophies such as materialism, etc. should get refuted.
The only proof possible is not through debate, but discovery for oneself.
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No_Mind
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by No_Mind »

binocular wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:36 pm
It seems easy enough to bring Buddhism out of Asia. But to take Asia out of Buddhism, not so much.
Assuming you are from Europe and learned about Buddhism from books, podcasts, forums, YouTube, meditation retreats .. where is the Asia/Asian influence you keep talking of?

Where is Asia here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ or here https://suttacentral.net/ or here http://www.dhammatalks.net/ or here https://www.youtube.com/

:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
justindesilva
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by justindesilva »

binocular wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:36 pm Greetings,

I noted this elsewhere:
binocular wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:52 pmI find it difficult to conceive of a Buddhism that is somehow separate from Asian cultures. I tend to think that Asians own the copyright to the Dhamma, so to speak. On the one hand, it seems silly to think so (and it makes Buddhism seem like just another tribal religion), but on the other hand, I don't know how to conceive of Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion (I can do it with Catholicism, though).
It seems easy enough to bring Buddhism out of Asia. But to take Asia out of Buddhism, not so much.
What am I missing?


Thanks.
I have learnt that a bodisatva to be enlightened as budda decides where to be reborn on the factors as
kalaya (period)
dipaya ( land)
deshaya ( country) and decides on the mother and the family before the birth.
As such The country India, and the mother Mahamaya had been decided prior to birth.
Hence we have to accept that these factors were decided with valid reasons as of enlightment, and ecplaining the damma without resistance socially and politically.
With the above reasons India been the land and the family of King suddodana and the mother to be was Queen Mahamaya had been decided.
The question of Asia or the west does not arise. Perhaps the west at the time of birth of the budda was not the right place sociologically and climatewise.
binocular
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by binocular »

chownah wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:51 amYour post is just a sign that you have serious misunderstandings about what the buddha taught.
I never claimed I understood it.

Since it is a sign I will not try to explain it with common sense realism.
Oh, come on, drama queen.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Buddhism as a supra-national, supra-racial religion?

Post by binocular »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:20 pmIt depends on which camp you are on.
As a Sri Lankan, I see Catholicism as a European invention. We see it as a political organisation.
That is most interesting! I didn't think such would be possible. Here on the ground, Catholicism looks like it is making deliberate efforts not to be a merely national/racial phenomenon. (There are, however, some individual examples of national-Catholicism, such as in Spain, Croatia, Austria where they have a specific mixture of Catholicism and nationalism. So, for example, Austrian national-Catholics believe that the Austrian Catholics are superior to any other Catholics.)

I'm reminded of some literary texts written by black American authors (sorry, I forgot the exact reference). There was a scene where some black slaves, Christians, were talking about God, and it turned out they believed that God was white, and that Jesus was white. And imagining God and Jesus as white, this dragged in all the baggage of white supremacism for them, and how they, as blacks, were slaves to whites. So for these black Christian slaves, their religion was something oppressive, in some racial-specific ways.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but it seems I'm doing something similar as those black Christian slaves (and am probably not the only one).

- - -
No_Mind wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:04 amAssuming you are from Europe and learned about Buddhism from books, podcasts, forums, YouTube, meditation retreats .. where is the Asia/Asian influence you keep talking of?

Where is Asia here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ or here https://suttacentral.net/ or here http://www.dhammatalks.net/ or here https://www.youtube.com/
Asia is in so many texts about Buddhism originating from Asian countries and originally being written in Asian languages. Asia is in the notion that if one wishes to learn more about Buddhism, one ideally has to go to a Buddhist country, which is in Asia, which also means one better learn the local Asian language. Most of the relevant Buddhist physical infrastructure is in Asia (temples, monasteries, ...). Most Buddhist teachers are Asians. Most Western Buddhist teachers had Asian teachers. Most Western monks spend a considerable amount of time in Asia before returning to the West, and some even reside in Asia permanently. Buddhist teachings are sometimes explained with the help of concepts from Asian languages or culture. If one goes to a Buddhist establishment in the West, chances are that it will be supported by an Asian expat community. Some Western teachers hold Asians as the role-models of Buddhist practice and expect that Westerners should be the same (with the same obedience, reverence, generosity, subordination).
:namaste:
That's Asian.

- - -
justindesilva wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:05 amI have learnt that a bodisatva to be enlightened as budda decides where to be reborn on the factors as
kalaya (period)
dipaya ( land)
deshaya ( country) and decides on the mother and the family before the birth.
As such The country India, and the mother Mahamaya had been decided prior to birth.
Hence we have to accept that these factors were decided with valid reasons as of enlightment, and ecplaining the damma without resistance socially and politically.
With the above reasons India been the land and the family of King suddodana and the mother to be was Queen Mahamaya had been decided.
The question of Asia or the west does not arise. Perhaps the west at the time of birth of the budda was not the right place sociologically and climatewise.
That's informative!
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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