Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Subharo
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by Subharo »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:02 am Do you really think so, Bhante?
I'll answer in 2 days.
Subharo Bhikkhu
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha :buddha1:
binocular
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by binocular »

DNS wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:10 amI suppose it might be nice to see a panel discussion of esteemed bhikkhus and bhikkhunis on "What is original Buddhism?" which texts, which interpretation of the teachings, Suttas, nature of nibbana, etc but as others have noted I imagine the rest of us will end up resonating with the ideas of the monastic we most like or to the views we already hold from our own studies, analysis, and / or insights.
Or just become more confused, or jaded.
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Saengnapha
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by Saengnapha »

Circle5 wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:21 am
Saengnapha wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 am Do you think there are any Arahants alive, either in East or West?
Why are you asking ?
why not? :thinking:
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DooDoot
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by DooDoot »

Subharo wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:45 amIf you could have your way and have certain living Theravada Senior monks engage in gentlemanly, frank discussion and co-operative exploration over various controversies and sticking points in Buddhism (in a similar way demonstrated here), who would talk to whom?
The two living senior Theravada monks I would nominate, due to what I sense is their learnedness & capacity to objectively consider various interpretations, would be Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Ajahn Jayasaro.

Image Image

For me, the other senior monks are too idiosyncratic (Brahm), quirky (Amaro; Vimalaramsi), sutta lacking (Sumedho); Mahavihara (Bodhi; Gunaratana) &/or agenda based (Sujato; Brahmali).
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:24 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by Saengnapha »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:51 am
Subharo wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:45 amIf you could have your way and have certain living Theravada Senior monks engage in gentlemanly, frank discussion and co-operative exploration over various controversies and sticking points in Buddhism (in a similar way demonstrated here), who would talk to whom?
The two living senior Theravada monks I would nominate, due to what I sense is their learnedness & capacity to objectively consider various interpretations, would be Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Ajahn Jayasaro.

Image Image

For me, the other senior monks are too idiosyncratic (Brahm), quirky (Amaro; Vimalaramsi), sutta lacking (Sumedho); Mahavihara (Bodhi; Gunaratana) &/or agenda based (Sujato; Brahmali).
Any reason you don't include Payutto? Only white people?
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DooDoot
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by DooDoot »

Saengnapha wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:58 amAny reason you don't include Payutto? Only white people?
I don't speak Thai and this is an English language website. I did include non-white Gunaratana. This said, Payutto is an excellent nomination. :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by Saengnapha »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:16 am
Saengnapha wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:58 amAny reason you don't include Payutto? Only white people?
I don't speak Thai and this is an English language website. I did include non-white Gunaratana. This said, Payutto is an excellent nomination. :thanks:
I see. The OP was referring to this site specifically?
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by binocular »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:51 am
Subharo wrote: This goes outside the scope of my own question (apologies), but I would like to hear a discussion between Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Sam Harris, over assertions Sam Harris made in his Essay "Killing the Buddha"
I think a discussion with Sam Harris would be similar to how Thanissaro Bhikkhu straightened out what he called the "Talmudic" ideas of Bhikkhu Bodhi about Just War.
I don't think Thanissaro Bhikkhu (or any earnest monk with some experience) would discuss in any depth with people like Harris. Harris doesn't seem to have respect for the Dhamma; and respect for the Dhamma isn't something that could be taught to a person against their will.
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by Saengnapha »

binocular wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:06 am
DooDoot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:51 am
Subharo wrote: This goes outside the scope of my own question (apologies), but I would like to hear a discussion between Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Sam Harris, over assertions Sam Harris made in his Essay "Killing the Buddha"
I think a discussion with Sam Harris would be similar to how Thanissaro Bhikkhu straightened out what he called the "Talmudic" ideas of Bhikkhu Bodhi about Just War.
I don't think Thanissaro Bhikkhu (or any earnest monk with some experience) would discuss in any depth with people like Harris. Harris doesn't seem to have respect for the Dhamma; and respect for the Dhamma isn't something that could be taught to a person against their will.
You mean if Harris asked Thanissaro to discuss something with him, he would dismiss him? I think this might be a projection on your part, not that I mind. Harris is just another person like you and me and all the others here. He has an interest in Buddhism, Dzogchen, the last I heard. Why do we have such attitudes?
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by binocular »

Saengnapha wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:25 amYou mean if Harris asked Thanissaro to discuss something with him, he would dismiss him?
I'm not sure he would dismiss him, but I don't think he would make a point of going into much depth.
This may very well be a projection of mine.
Harris is just another person like you and me and all the others here. He has an interest in Buddhism, Dzogchen, the last I heard. Why do we have such attitudes?
A monk has limited time and strict priorities, so there doesn't seem to be all that much time for discussing things with strangers, even if they are famous.
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by sentinel »

Perhaps

Dhammanando & subharo .

1. Buddhism is negligible / insignificant on the main platform of this world . By 2050 (by estimation) Islam will outnumbered Christian and where is Buddhism ? Probably will disappear from the face of the earth .
2. Nibbana is not nothingness (non existence).
3. Namarupa exact definition .
4. What Buddha never taught doesn't mean Not true (alien species , evolution) .
5. Seniority principle (respect) is in accord with the nature law , similar to filial piety , is a kind of virtue not otherwise .
Last edited by sentinel on Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
perkele
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by perkele »

I think senior monks, as well as junior monks or anyone else should discuss whatever they need to discuss in order to further their understanding of the Dhamma.

To do this as a performance of monastics before laypeople would seem likely to be driven by wrong motivation to me, except when they are very sure that their way of discussing is elucidating and not falsifying the Dhamma, or when someone else has gone public with some statements which they see necessary to rectify. But not just for the purpose of entertaining the masses, without some specific matter they want to clarify.
James Tan wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:24 pmDhammanando vs subharo
Was there a disagreement between these two in public which would be good to be resolved in public? If not, then why set them up against each other? Seems very un-dhammic to me to stage such a performance.
James Tan wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:24 pm1. Buddhism is negligible / insignificant on the main platform of this world . By 2050 (by estimation) Islam will outnumbered Christian and where is Buddhism ? Probably will disappear from the face of the earth .
Sounds like discussing politics, rather than Dhamma.
James Tan wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:24 pm4. What Buddha never taught doesn't mean Not true (alien species , evolution).
And what the Buddha never taught has no bearing on the goal of ending suffering (according to his own words). So he would not have recommended it as a proper subject of discussion for monastics.

The other points, 2, 3 and 5 do look like proper topics for Dhamma discussion.
I don't think there is much lack of open discussion (including monastcis) about 2 and 3, when looking at this forum here in particular, but maybe about 5.
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by sentinel »

perkele wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:33 pm I think senior monks, as well as junior monks or anyone else should discuss whatever they need to discuss in order to further their understanding of the Dhamma.

To do this as a performance of monastics before laypeople would seem likely to be driven by wrong motivation to me, except when they are very sure that their way of discussing is elucidating and not falsifying the Dhamma, or when someone else has gone public with some statements which they see necessary to rectify. But not just for the purpose of entertaining the masses, without some specific matter they want to clarify.
James Tan wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:24 pmDhammanando & subharo
Was there a disagreement between these two in public which would be good to be resolved in public? If not, then why set them up against each other? Seems very un-dhammic to me to stage such a performance.
James Tan wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:24 pm1. Buddhism is negligible / insignificant on the main platform of this world . By 2050 (by estimation) Islam will outnumbered Christian and where is Buddhism ? Probably will disappear from the face of the earth .
Sounds like discussing politics, rather than Dhamma.
James Tan wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:24 pm4. What Buddha never taught doesn't mean Not true (alien species , evolution).
And what the Buddha never taught has no bearing on the goal of ending suffering (according to his own words). So he would not have recommended it as a proper subject of discussion for monastics.

The other points, 2, 3 and 5 do look like proper topics for Dhamma discussion.
I don't think there is much lack of open discussion (including monastcis) about 2 and 3, when looking at this forum here in particular, but maybe about 5.
The question itself invite us to suggest , whom
Ideally for discussions and explore any topic .
All of it I think relevant to Buddhism .
Both monks are well equipped and ideal IMO for a proper dialogue . I'm not setting up anyone .
On the contrary , with good and proper intention .
Undhammic , no . If anyone were to suggest or request something like this , it is part of learning dhamma in diverse way .
Whatever concerning Buddhism , should be being part of buddhists attention . Everything in this world is interrelated and interconnected . Small number will affect Buddhism future , whether they can / can't have freedom in religion . For example the people In Brunei where they can't freely practise the dhamma and monks are not allowed to enter the country .
There are many things in this world that have no direct connection with the teachings , however , it may consider as part of human learning process .
Even monks have to learn using computer and internet which cannot bring you to end suffering .
Again , lacking of flexibility in thinking and limiting yourself for further discussions could cause one to live in rigidity only .
Anyway , this is my analysis only , just like your above offered opinions .

Ps . Unnecessary biased and upsets is part of our conditioning which is a hindrance on the path .
Regards .
Last edited by sentinel on Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Subharo
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by Subharo »

polarbear101 wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:43 am I am tantalized into asking, what do you think the long-standing controversies and sticking points are?
... let us know what you think the top 3 are...
  1. Retro's third point, below
  2. What are the prevailing ideas/views of Hinduism and Confucianism that you (the Senior monks) see as having snuck into Theravada Buddhism (as practised in ethnic Asian countries today), which you would carefully distinguish and remove (from wide-spread usage in traditional Buddhism) if you had the opportunity to? ...And selection of said Senior monks is contingent beforehand to being able to see the presence of such Hindu and Confucian views.
  3. Why is Theravada Buddhism so Balkanized?
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:46 pm Were I to guess...
- Legitimacy of Theravada bhikkhuni ordination
- Meaning and significance of dependent origination, nibbana and rebirth
- The respective authority of Sutta, Abdhidhamma, traditional Commentary, modern commentary (incl. "national" perspectives) and personal opinion
Thanks for these, Retro. You would know far better than I do what the regularily-occurring concerns of DW users are, due to your unique position as a moderator.
:group:
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:02 am Personally, I question the whole idea of this thread.
After thinking it over, you're probably on the mark here in the sense that the safest thing for Senior monks to do is to keep Theravada Buddhism as Balkanized as it is currently, not really making any bold attempts (like I'm doing here) to try to stitch anything up (even though the Buddha highly praises efforts aimed at uniting divided groups of monks). Then everyone gets to optimally save face, and no one runs the risk of "vomiting hot blood" should they lose in a heated discussion (which started off with the intention of being co-operative and gentlemanly).

I realized this after remembering two things:
- An insightful Bhikkhu I know commented that he noticed (at least in Sri Lanka, where he ordained), that (paraphrasing heavily here) "by the time a Bhikkhu reaches 20 vassas, he's (virtually always) no longer talking to the other 20-vassa monks he knows".

- I used to take a martial art, way back when I was a teenager. I noted that the master would never spar with the students, nor compete in tournaments. His two black-belt sons did those things for him. The explanation I got as to why the Master never competed was this: "because if he ever lost in a tournament, it would make his school look bad, and that might be a heavy financial loss to the school."
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Subharo
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Re: Which Senior Theravada monks should ideally discuss and explore with each other over which topics?

Post by Subharo »

James Tan wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:24 pm Dhammanando & subharo .
I'm a Majjhima monk (9 vassas), not a Senior monk. If I were to try to have a discussion (in the Westerner sense of that term) with a monk of, say, 20 vassas, then it probably wouldn't really be a discussion (again, in the Westerner sense of the term). Hierarchy would probably make it such that I'm the Audience hearing a one-way Dhamma talk from the Senior monk.

At most I could manage to be an interviewer, who asks the occasional question, with very long answers from the senior monk, which would likely be an uninterruptable gush of Dhamma, pretty much leaving no opportunity to get any words in edgewise. The Senior monks I've met, for the most part, do not converse in the way Westerners do, where they "take some and leave some" (politely allowing about 50% of talking time to each participant) in a conversation.

One of the main reasons I embedded that Harris-and-Peterson video in the OP was to show an inspiring example of such 50%-and-50% conversation that Westerners often have.
Last edited by Subharo on Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Subharo Bhikkhu
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