Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

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D1W1
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Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by D1W1 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:46 am

Hi guys,

Is it true for those who practice five precepts will only be reborn in higher realms with human realm as the lowest realm? I thought only sotapanna will never be reborn in apaya realm. Which one is the correct one? Thanks.

paul
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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by paul » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:29 am

The precepts are 'training rules' and clinging to mere rules and rituals with the view that one may reach purification that way is one of the four proscribed kinds of clinging (upadana). Clinging to rules and rituals is one of the three fetters overcome on stream entry and after entering the stream the noble disciple is no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, is firmly established, destined to full enlightenment.

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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:46 am

The way I understand the observing five precepts are not rites and rituals.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

D1W1
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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by D1W1 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:44 am

But is it true a devout Buddhist who keeps five precepts guaranteed will only be reborn in a happy destination in the next life? AFAIK only ariya puggala (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahat) will not take rebirth in lower realm in the next life (guaranteed). Anyone?

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Bundokji
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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by Bundokji » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:24 am

The five precepts, as i understand them, should not be understood in isolation from the practice (the four noble truths).

Your question presents them as if they can be practiced in isolation, and if this is the case, i don't think it would be correct to call them the five precepts of Buddhism in my opinion.

It can be noticed that refraining from killing, stealing, lying, drinking alcohol and sexual misconduct exist in many other religions. Would it be accurate to say that those religion practice the five precepts? does the notion of other realms exists in all other religions?

What is the difference between the five precepts of Buddhism and the moral teachings of other religions/philosophies if i may ask?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:56 am

the five precepts have been described as five faultless gifts, and keeping them one is also compared to a baby, meaning in and of themselves they are empty.

"There are these five gifts, five great gifts — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans. Which five?

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the first gift, the first great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

When this was said, the Blessed One said to Pañcakanga: "In that case, carpenter, then according to Uggahamana's words a stupid baby boy, lying on its back, is consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. For even the thought 'body' does not occur to a stupid baby boy lying on its back, so from where would it do any evil action with its body, aside from a little kicking? Even the thought 'speech' does not occur to it, so from where would it speak any evil speech, aside from a little crying? Even the thought 'resolve' does not occur to it, so from where would it resolve on any evil resolve, aside from a little bad temper? Even the thought 'livelihood' does not occur to it, so from where would it maintain itself with any evil means of livelihood, aside from its mother's milk? So, according to Uggahamana's words, a stupid baby boy, lying on its back is consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments.

"If an individual is endowed with these four qualities, I do not describe him as consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. Rather, he stands on the same level as a stupid baby boy lying on its back. Which four? There is the case where he does no evil action with his body, speaks no evil speech, resolves on no evil resolve, and maintains himself with no evil means of livelihood. If an individual is endowed with these four qualities, I do not describe him as consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. Rather, he stands on the same level as a stupid baby boy lying on its back.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

keeping the precepts alone does not make one a noble person, but keeping them is necessary to attain stream entry
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:57 am

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by dylanj » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:07 am

The result of observing the 5 precepts is a leading upwards towards the higher realms. There's no guarantee involved - it's a hard rule that the 5 precepts lead to higher realms, but not a hard rule that whoever observes them will be born there. There is also still a chance of falling back if one is not established in the Dhamma through one of the 4 paths/fruits - virtue in & of itself does not lead to liberation and can be possessed by ordinary worldlings.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:55 am

D1W1 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:46 am
Is it true for those who practice five precepts will only be reborn in higher realms with human realm as the lowest realm? I thought only sotapanna will never be reborn in apaya realm. Which one is the correct one? Thanks.
In my reading of the suttas, my impression is there are two distinct sets of teachings: (i) transcendent/supramundane teachings for monks; & (ii) moral teachings for laypeople. The moral teachings for laypeople appear to say good karma leads to heaven. The transcendent teachings for monks generally do not aim for heaven (despite certain genres of suttas, particularly found in the AN).
To Cunda the Silversmith wrote:As a result of being endowed with these ten courses of skillful action, [rebirth among] the devas is declared, [rebirth among] human beings is declared — that or any other good destination.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Dhammapada wrote:178. Better than sole sovereignty over the earth, better than going to heaven, better even than lordship over all the worlds is the supramundane Fruition of Stream Entrance.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
I think it is against the spirit of the suttas to teach lay people or householders their good deeds may not have good results because of a lack of stream-entry.

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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:27 pm

maranadhammomhi wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:07 am
The result of observing the 5 precepts is a leading upwards towards the higher realms. There's no guarantee involved - it's a hard rule that the 5 precepts lead to higher realms, but not a hard rule that whoever observes them will be born there. There is also still a chance of falling back if one is not established in the Dhamma through one of the 4 paths/fruits - virtue in & of itself does not lead to liberation and can be possessed by ordinary worldlings.
And if I may add to this, practising the five precepts of buddhism is following the 1st five steps of the noble eight fold path which are samma ditthi ( right vision of four noble truths ) samma sathi (right mindfulness or thought,) right speech ( samma vacha) Right action ( samma vaya) and right livelyhood( samma ajiva) . Here right or samma means void of greed , aversion and illusion. Any person thus acting in the path of arya ashtangika marga accumulates kusal which leads to beneficial karma. One who accumulates positive or skilful karma cannot revert to a lower realm from manussa atma.
Those who practise proper pancasila are those who walk in the the noble eight fold path.
one cannot observe the first of the five precepts if one believes in a self as ahimsa ( panathipata) is a selfless act. One who does not believe in Budda, damma and sangha will not follow the five precepts meaningfully.One who understands darma with the four noble truths will not follow the five precepts as rules, rites or rituals.
There by those who follow 5 precepts with a clear understanding of damma qualify to be stream enterers or the travellers of the noble eight fold path.
In sampatthi samyutta lord budda clears doubts of Mahanama (Mahanama sutta) and then Liccavis that as a tree bends to the east those who are following the right sila cannot revert back to lower realms. ( see SN 55.22 and SN 55.30)
Our own doubts in panca sila has to be cleared if we too seek a higher realm from this abode.

James Tan
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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by James Tan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:05 am

We can consider five precept in two fold .
First in ordinary sense which suffice for those not desiring for emancipation .
Two as a foundation which corresponding to the dhamma i.e. non greed non hatred non deluded .

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Re: Five precepts and four lower realms (Apaya)

Post by Polar Bear » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:27 am

The suttas teach that following the precepts is good kamma that will eventually bear good fruit. But only the stream enterer is completely assured that no past bad kamma will bear fruit as a destination in the lower realms.
"But there is also the case where a certain person is one who abstains from taking life, abstains from taking what is not given, abstains from illicit sex, abstains from lying, abstains from speaking divisively, abstains from speaking abusively, abstains from idle chatter, is not covetous, not malevolent, & holds right view, [yet] with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell...

"Then there is the case, Ānanda, where a certain contemplative or brahman — through ardency, exertion, commitment, heedfulness, & right attention — touches the sort of concentration of awareness that, when his mind is thus concentrated, he sees with the divine eye, pure and surpassing the human, that person — the case where one who abstains from taking life, abstains from taking what is not given, abstains from illicit sex, abstains from lying, abstains from speaking divisively, abstains from speaking abusively, abstains from idle chatter, is not covetous, not malevolent, & holds right view, with the breakup of the body, after death, reappears in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell...

"Now, Ānanda, in the case where the contemplative or brahman says, 'So there really are fine actions, there really is the result of good conduct,' I allow him that. And when he says, 'For I saw the case where a person who abstained from taking life... & held right view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a good destination, a heavenly world,' I allow him that, too. But when he says, 'Anyone who abstains from taking life... & holds right view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world,' I don't allow him that. And when he says, 'Whoever knows this, knows rightly. Whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong,' I don't allow him that. When, insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: 'Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless,' I don't allow him that, either. Why is that? Because the Tathāgata's knowledge with regard to the greater analysis of action is otherwise...

"In the case of the person who abstains from taking life... & holds right view [yet] with the breakup of the body, after death, reappears in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell: Either earlier he performed evil action that is to be felt as painful, or later he performed evil action that is to be felt as painful, or at the time of death he adopted & carried out wrong view. Because of that, with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. But as for the results of abstaining from taking life... holding right view, he will feel them either right here & now, or in the next [lifetime], or following that.

"Thus, Ānanda, there is action that is ineffectual and apparently ineffectual. There is action that is ineffectual but apparently effectual. There is action that is both effectual and apparently effectual. There is action that is effectual but apparently ineffectual."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Ānanda delighted in the Blessed One's words.

Mahākamma­vibhaṅga Sutta
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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