Worldly success & Dhamma practice

[Saengnapha]

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You just have to choose:

Do you want to give up this world, or do you want to live in it?

The more you want to give up this world, the more you would give up money, I guess?

If you are unsure, I think that means you are still layman-minded (like me). So just enjoy the world, until you can give it up. There is no harm in enjoying the world, if your mind does not want to give up the world. If you give up the world, then come back to it, you might cause instability to your support of your parent(s)?

I am definitely inclined to renunciation but I still have interest in my field of what will be my profession, computer programming. I tend to be idle and have aspirations towards worldly things that I think will bring well-being, but the more I actually do these things the more I realize their shallow nature and that the Dhamma would bring better well-being. I think the worldly desires can be distractions from the path.

I feel inclined to "renounce the world" as a result of experience with my practice years ago but I'm not practicing consistently these days and need something to get me through the weeks and years which is now school and provides some worldly well being and "maintenance". However Buddha has suggested in this sutta is a blessing to have good things in this life, the next, and realize nibbana. To have all good things, wordly and spiritual So you see my dilemma... will taking some worldly ways instead of giving up the world enhance things or be a hindrance to single-minded renunciation? Do we have to cut out the worldly to seek the highest good?

At this point however I do not want to make such drastic lifestyle changes as becoming a monk... I'd have to do community events, teaching, travelling, leading the lay services, and so on as they do in my local Buddhist Vihara and not a lot of time for meditation. But a layperson can be austere on his own terms and meditate all his free time.

For now I will listen to the advice of another poster who suggested a little worldly felicity can help set the stage for spiritual practice. It's almost necessary in the absence of consistent and significant practice to have something to aim for (school, honors, etc, that I am capable of), until such time as I can build a better foundation of ethics and meditation.

But I think someone who really wanted to renounce the world would discard this type of benefit or "felicity" for austere effortful meditation without a second thought. Still, it's something for now and may be a foundation for cultivating mindfulness practice in daily life. Does anyone have any other daily mindfulness resources besides the ones I mentioned above?

One last point. Bhikkhu Pesala has just posted this link: http://www.aimwell.org/path.html#Appendices which equates talking about the origin and destiny of the world or universe as idle chatter, leading to rebirth in the unfortunate realms. I could think of a thousand more examples of this kind of talk that go on in a typical classroom setting.

Please share thoughts samsarictravelling and others.

Both the world and your self are creations of your own making. Conceptions. You continue to create them in each moment. What kind of renouncing will stop that? None that you would volitionally make. Can you comprehend my logic?

[samsarictravelling]

You (Saengnapha) said:

Both the world and your self are creations of your own making. Conceptions. You continue to create them in each moment. What kind of renouncing will stop that? None that you would volitionally make. Can you comprehend my logic?

I answer:

If buddhist monkhood did not help to attain spirituality, there would be no need of the buddhist monkhood institution.

samsarictravelling

[justindesilva]

You (Saengnapha) said:

Both the world and your self are creations of your own making. Conceptions. You continue to create them in each moment. What kind of renouncing will stop that? None that you would volitionally make. Can you comprehend my logic?

I answer:

If buddhist monkhood did not help to attain spirituality, there would be no need of the buddhist monkhood institution.

samsarictravelling

Lord budda clearly saw the event that all could not experience priesthood. There by he advised laymen to go about their businness while experiencing the lay life. No. 1 being the advise to follow the five precepts as minimum virtue or Sila. Then at instances he advised the laymen to develop their skills as of Sigalovada sutta and then not to engage in unskilful social events as stealing , gambling, or sexual misconducts which are unnskilful living of personnel and social degradation as of Parabhava sutta.
Then lord buddha created the living ethics for laymen as upasaka upasika with ashtanga sila , while elevating one upto a dasa ( ten) sila. As one elevates one from panca sila to ashtanga sila , they get skilled in getting away from sex or panca kama while restraining from daily habits of keeping away from meals after the sun sets from noon and giving more time to meditate. The upositha ( ashtanga sila) also includes in not sitting on comfortable seats and keeping away from music and perfumes. It is only a person who can observe arya ashtangasila , that can later renounce this lay life to become a samanera or an ascetic to observe the millions of virtues ( sila) that an ascetic observes to travel in the arya ashtangika marga in.order to enjoy marga pala from sotapanna to nirvana.
Secondly we must appreciate that the few remaining sangha is expected and fulfils the need of social welfare of running damma schools to educate the young buddhists. The sangha community also fulfils funeral rites, attends alms givings (dana) and engages in sermons as of social necessity while fulfilling their personnel need of furthering their educational status.
With all these there are sangha who has attained higher standards of sila who very well advice in our path to liberation.
With metta.

[Saengnapha]

You (Saengnapha) said:

Both the world and your self are creations of your own making. Conceptions. You continue to create them in each moment. What kind of renouncing will stop that? None that you would volitionally make. Can you comprehend my logic?

I answer:

If buddhist monkhood did not help to attain spirituality, there would be no need of the buddhist monkhood institution.

samsarictravelling

Perhaps there is no need for it.

[Dhammarakkhito]

how to be a good layfollower: https://suttacentral.net/en/dn31

https://suttacentral.net/en/snp2.14

i'm sure there are more
if you get wealthy, share it, take care of your parents, give to the saṅgha etc etc

[samsarictravelling]

Perhaps there is no need for it.

[samsarictravelling]

You (Saengnapha) said:

Both the world and your self are creations of your own making. Conceptions. You continue to create them in each moment. What kind of renouncing will stop that? None that you would volitionally make. Can you comprehend my logic?

I answer:

If buddhist monkhood did not help to attain spirituality, there would be no need of the buddhist monkhood institution.

samsarictravelling

Lord budda clearly saw the event that all could not experience priesthood. There by he advised laymen to go about their businness while experiencing the lay life. No. 1 being the advise to follow the five precepts as minimum virtue or Sila. Then at instances he advised the laymen to develop their skills as of Sigalovada sutta and then not to engage in unskilful social events as stealing , gambling, or sexual misconducts which are unnskilful living of personnel and social degradation as of Parabhava sutta.
Then lord buddha created the living ethics for laymen as upasaka upasika with ashtanga sila , while elevating one upto a dasa ( ten) sila. As one elevates one from panca sila to ashtanga sila , they get skilled in getting away from sex or panca kama while restraining from daily habits of keeping away from meals after the sun sets from noon and giving more time to meditate. The upositha ( ashtanga sila) also includes in not sitting on comfortable seats and keeping away from music and perfumes. It is only a person who can observe arya ashtangasila , that can later renounce this lay life to become a samanera or an ascetic to observe the millions of virtues ( sila) that an ascetic observes to travel in the arya ashtangika marga in.order to enjoy marga pala from sotapanna to nirvana.
Secondly we must appreciate that the few remaining sangha is expected and fulfils the need of social welfare of running damma schools to educate the young buddhists. The sangha community also fulfils funeral rites, attends alms givings (dana) and engages in sermons as of social necessity while fulfilling their personnel need of furthering their educational status.
With all these there are sangha who has attained higher standards of sila who very well advice in our path to liberation.
With metta.

Thank you for your input.

[samsarictravelling]

how to be a good layfollower: https://suttacentral.net/en/dn31

https://suttacentral.net/en/snp2.14

i'm sure there are more
if you get wealthy, share it, take care of your parents, give to the saṅgha etc etc

Thank you for your input, also.

[auto]

World success as dharma is like someone telling a joke, you get it it is a joke and consequently blocking the outflows what would make you laugh, so you next think should you fake laughing or what would be the best thing to do to get away from this difficult situation.
In short if you come aware you see brightness, light, eyes spark then the choices and actions you do are empty and you will go down not up to success in worldly terms.

When you are planning to do is to make yourself wanted via tangible success like cars, house, papers and then what you get is females who are retinues of mara, appearances what are not empty.

[purist_andrew]

I want to thank you all deeply for your advice.

I will take this advice and think about it and perhaps post more of my thoughts on this subject in the near future.

[Circle5]

A successful person is successful whatever he does. One who is successful in his lay life will also be successful in the buddhist path.

If you can't become a monk due to life conditions, then by all means be a successful lay person. If you are a failure, you won't have the money, power and time that might help you in promoting the dhamma and doing many other good things. You might not even have the time to study the dhamma. There were times in my life when I had problems with money due to making mistakes and being unsuccessful at my job. There were times when I really wanted to do a good deed for a human or animal but didn't have the money. So if you are going to remain a lay person, try to be doing good with money. Don't try to be some form of an urban monk, that will only serve as an excuse in your mind for being a burnout. Plus, you're not setting an example to other people through being a burnout, you're not gona be a good commercial to buddhism. It is always good to lead by example.