Worldly success & Dhamma practice

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purist_andrew
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Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by purist_andrew »

Hello friends,

Today I want to ask whether, and to what degree, one can and ought to have worldly success (such as making much of school and work) and still practice Dhamma.

I am now in my mid 30s and am a student at the local community college. I tend to be very intelligent with academia and capable of getting good grades; my GPA is 3.87 and I am in the honors program.

However, I do not know to what degree it is in accordance with the Dhamma to chase after this kind of worldly success and felicity.

On the one hand, according to Bhikkhu Bodhi's new translation of the Suttanipata and its commentaries, secular learning (in addition to Dhamma learning) is one of the 30 or 40-something blessings in the Maha Mangala Sutta. It was explained that this sutta is to develop and acquire all the good things in this life, the next world, and Nibbana.

However, what immediately occurs to me is whether this type of success goes against the spirit of the Dhamma... for example, there are suttas that discourage one from speculating on the origin and destiny of the world... this is exactly the type of secular learning that school provides. In addition, I am afraid that a large amount of the stuff I will learn, discuss, write about could be considered idle chatter since it is not about the Dhamma.

I think that modern day teachers, such as Nyanaponika Thera and Mahasi Sayadaw have taught that to have practical success in Dhamma (in today's society) practice it's good to distance oneself from this kind of thing and spend long periods of time in meditation.

So, to me, the choice is either take the Buddha's word on ideal conditions of a life of "blessings" (including worldly) or that of modern day meditation teachers rooted in their practical experience of setting aside long periods of time for meditation (in renunciation of "this world") .

... like Webu Sayadaw used to teach aspire only to the happiness of Nibbana, not any worldly happiness.

Short of making much of school, honor society, being a participant in class, etc, I could use school just as a means to get work and financial independence to practice Dhamma. But I don't know which to pursue, school/career as just a means for independence or to chase after worldly success and happiness and make much of it.

Thanks for your feedback in advance,
Andrew
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by DooDoot »

purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmOn the one hand, according to Bhikkhu Bodhi's new translation of the Suttanipata and its commentaries, secular learning (in addition to Dhamma learning) is one of the 30 or 40-something blessings in the Maha Mangala Sutta.
Indeed.
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmHowever, what immediately occurs to me is whether this type of success goes against the spirit of the Dhamma...
Most high-profile successful monks were/are well-educated. It is par for the course that a Dhamma practitioner can perform any necessary life duty.
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmfor example, there are suttas that discourage one from speculating on the origin and destiny of the world... this is exactly the type of secular learning that school provides. In addition, I am afraid that a large amount of the stuff I will learn, discuss, write about could be considered idle chatter since it is not about the Dhamma.
One does not need to specialise in these topics.
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmI think that modern day teachers, such as Nyanaponika Thera and Mahasi Sayadaw have taught that to have practical success in Dhamma (in today's society) practice it's good to distance oneself from this kind of thing and spend long periods of time in meditation.
This appears to be a strong generalisation.
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pm to me, the choice is either take the Buddha's word on ideal conditions of a life of "blessings" (including worldly) or that of modern day meditation teachers rooted in their practical experience of setting aside long periods of time for meditation (in renunciation of "this world") .
Again, I suspect you have made gross generalisations about these two teachers. Regardless, they are merely two people (rather than some omniscient authorities).
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmAdditionally I'd like to ask any practitioners here (I'm not a consistent practitioner) whether and to what extent we need to distance ourselves from worldly activity and practice renunciation... like Webu Sayadaw used to teach aspire only to the happiness of Nibbana, not any worldly happiness.

Since you are not a consistent practitioner, how can you know the life of a monk will be Right Livelihood for you? How will you live? How will you acquire food, clothing, shelter & medicine?
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmShort of making much of school, honor society, being a participant in class, etc, I could use school just as a means to get work and financial independence to practice Dhamma. But I don't know which to pursue, school/career as just a means for independence or to chase after worldly success and happiness and make much of it.
Buddhism teaches every person must have a Livelihood. I think this is the bottom line. Therefore, if you are interested in Dhamma, it is generally ideal to study a qualification that supports Dhamma practise, such as a helping profession or a profession that allows self-employment (because working as an employee often can bring lots of dukkha). If I had to live my life over again, this is what I would have done, namely, focus on a qualification to enable self-employment (because the corporate ethics of the world are in sharp decline, based on my experience).

Kind regards :)
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by purist_andrew »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:38 pm
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmOn the one hand, according to Bhikkhu Bodhi's new translation of the Suttanipata and its commentaries, secular learning (in addition to Dhamma learning) is one of the 30 or 40-something blessings in the Maha Mangala Sutta.
Indeed.
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmHowever, what immediately occurs to me is whether this type of success goes against the spirit of the Dhamma...
Most high-profile successful monks were well-educated. It is par for the course that a Dhamma practitioner can perform any necessary life duty.

Thank you for your feedback, this sets my mind at ease to a great extent.
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmfor example, there are suttas that discourage one from speculating on the origin and destiny of the world... this is exactly the type of secular learning that school provides. In addition, I am afraid that a large amount of the stuff I will learn, discuss, write about could be considered idle chatter since it is not about the Dhamma.
One does not need to specialise in these topics.

OK, but engaging in conversation about this type of thing seems to encroach into areas of wrong speech, is what my point was.
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pm to me, the choice is either take the Buddha's word on ideal conditions of a life of "blessings" (including worldly) or that of modern day meditation teachers rooted in their practical experience of setting aside long periods of time for meditation (in renunciation of "this world") .
Again, I suspect you have made gross generalisations about these two teachers. Regardless, they are merely two people (rather than some omniscient authorities).
Ven Nyanaponika Thera had a passage (in his book "The Heart of Buddhist Meditation") about how to practice in the context of living in a modern city. He said one should keep aside book studies and and use whatever free time (outside of work) is available for meditation. From his teacher's (and Mahasi's) personal experience with students this seemed to give mostly good results and progress with practice.

You are right that they are just people but perhaps we should respect them as people experienced with the mechanics of meditation in modern life rather an ideal which may or may not be workable in the conditions of modern society. Mahasi Sayadaw has widely been considered an ariya. But I will take your words into consideration, too.
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pmAdditionally I'd like to ask any practitioners here (I'm not a consistent practitioner) whether and to what extent we need to distance ourselves from worldly activity and practice renunciation... like Webu Sayadaw used to teach aspire only to the happiness of Nibbana, not any worldly happiness.

Since you are not a consistent practitioner, how can you know the life of a monk will be Right Livelihood for you? How will you live? How will you acquire food, clothing, shelter & medicine?


I have some experience with meditation years ago but have backslid and lost my "groove" and technique. I am aware that I like virtue and meditation and so on and this is what I want to pursue. I don't want to be a monk; I think there are perhaps more opportunities for learning as a layperson as you come more into contact with others and the modern world. But still, an austere lifestyle is not inappropriate for a layperson if he or she wishes for it. Right now I'm not certain on whether this is a good idea. I am still attracted to the idea of successful projects as I am in the field of computer programming, as well as making use of my gifts to acheive excellence in school.
Buddhism teaches every person must have a Livelihood. I think this is the bottom line. Therefore, if you are interested in Dhamma, it is best to study a qualification that supports Dhamma practise, such as a helping profession or a profession that allows self-employment (even working as an employee often can bring lots of dukkha).
OK so the question is, whether I should use school and work (only) as a vehicle for allowing me to practice, OR alternatively seek worldly felicity, honors, success, awards, etc etc that I could probably acheive in school.
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by Sam Vara »

purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:53 pm OK so the question is, whether I should use school and work (only) as a vehicle for allowing me to practice, OR alternatively seek worldly felicity, honors, success, awards, etc etc that I could probably acheive in school.
Personally, I wouldn't draw a distinction between them like this. For a lay person, a degree of worldly felicity is required in order to practice at all. We often hear from people who say their problems in lay life are such that they cannot practice, but we never hear committed Buddhists saying that they are too contented to keep the precepts. My teacher said to me that most people need to alleviate their suffering a bit before they can develop a useful practice - so make things easy for yourself. Having a good job, a good education, and material comfort at least allows you to make the choice, whereas if you don't look after worldly things then the choice has been made for you. And dana is awfully difficult if you haven't got much to give.

My advice is to follow DooDoot's advice, and - if a lay person is what you are - then be a successful lay person, one who benefits himself and others.
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by purist_andrew »

Sam Vara and Dootdo,

Thanks for helping me clear up some of my doubts.

I had in mind previously a post viewtopic.php?t=27671#p394210 by Bhikkhu Pesala about not being able to enjoy a completely normal laylife while still practicing but now that I found the post I think he meant for arahantship, and that laypeople can still reach the lower attainments while still having a fairly normal life.

It would be good further if anyone could share their personal experience living an involved laylife and still meditating a lot, or having difficulties therewith Just to validate this for me.

Thanks, my friends,
Andrew
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Andrew,
purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:20 pm It would be good further if anyone could share their personal experience living an involved laylife and still meditating a lot, or having difficulties therewith Just to validate this for me.
There's up-sides and there's down-sides, but it's worth your while.

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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

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purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:20 pm It would be good further if anyone could share their personal experience living an involved laylife and still meditating a lot, or having difficulties therewith Just to validate this for me.
Happy wife, happy life.

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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by Garrib »

The problem I think is not so much with "success" (however you define that) as it is with the way that 'praise, honor, and gain' can obsess the mind and lead to unwholesome things (breaking precepts and so forth). So for myself, I think the real challenge for the lay Buddhist who is involved in secular education and business and so forth, is to remain humble, and to keep things in the right perspective (recognizing that all these arisings are conditioned, impermanent, suffering, and non-self; seeing the danger in the slightest fault etc...). I believe it is also important to not hold others to the same standards one expects of oneself, as this can lead to conflicts. Better to cultivate compassion and equanimity. All worldly success (and failure) is impermanent and at some point it will have to be let go of. But as a layperson trying to build a suitable raft for crossing over, a modest amount of success (wealth, "security") obtained through Right Livelihood is very helpful.

Good luck!!
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by DooDoot »

purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:20 pmIt would be good further if anyone could share their personal experience living an involved laylife and still meditating a lot, or having difficulties therewith Just to validate this for me.
I personally do not have any such experience to share, because I did my foundational meditation in an intensive monastic setting, but later injured by body, which forced me to return to the ordinary lay world. Thus, the meditative results that have sustained my "lay life" (which is celibate) were developed in a monastic environment. However, I think I have experience in the lay world. Work that challenges my natural ethics is difficult. When my once ethical job losts its ethics, I left. I studied & obtained a qualification for self-employment (which would have been difficult to establish) but fortunately some investments came good so I survive on those. Sufficient money does provide freedom. I do live a very simply life, so don't have high financial needs. But ethics is the big thing for me. I can't sell my soul for a job & money.
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by Saengnapha »

purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pm Hello friends,

Today I want to ask whether, and to what degree, one can and ought to have worldly success (such as making much of school and work) and still practice Dhamma.

I am now in my mid 30s and am a student at the local community college. I tend to be very intelligent with academia and capable of getting good grades; my GPA is 3.87 and I am in the honors program.

However, I do not know to what degree it is in accordance with the Dhamma to chase after this kind of worldly success and felicity.

On the one hand, according to Bhikkhu Bodhi's new translation of the Suttanipata and its commentaries, secular learning (in addition to Dhamma learning) is one of the 30 or 40-something blessings in the Maha Mangala Sutta. It was explained that this sutta is to develop and acquire all the good things in this life, the next world, and Nibbana.

However, what immediately occurs to me is whether this type of success goes against the spirit of the Dhamma... for example, there are suttas that discourage one from speculating on the origin and destiny of the world... this is exactly the type of secular learning that school provides. In addition, I am afraid that a large amount of the stuff I will learn, discuss, write about could be considered idle chatter since it is not about the Dhamma.

I think that modern day teachers, such as Nyanaponika Thera and Mahasi Sayadaw have taught that to have practical success in Dhamma (in today's society) practice it's good to distance oneself from this kind of thing and spend long periods of time in meditation.

So, to me, the choice is either take the Buddha's word on ideal conditions of a life of "blessings" (including worldly) or that of modern day meditation teachers rooted in their practical experience of setting aside long periods of time for meditation (in renunciation of "this world") .

... like Webu Sayadaw used to teach aspire only to the happiness of Nibbana, not any worldly happiness.

Short of making much of school, honor society, being a participant in class, etc, I could use school just as a means to get work and financial independence to practice Dhamma. But I don't know which to pursue, school/career as just a means for independence or to chase after worldly success and happiness and make much of it.

Thanks for your feedback in advance,
Andrew
As you progress studying the Buddhadhamma, you will see the need to change your circumstances. What those changes will be, will naturally be in line with Dhamma and according to your own abilities. There can be no map for this, just guidelines as in the 8 Fold Path. Each part of this will begin to inform your life if you take up the Dhamma with the necessary intentions. Big changes or small ones will happen according to your state of mind and how you have faced the 5 Hindrances. Without facing these hindrances and changing your orientation, you will more or less go along without making deep progress. It's not unheard of to meet meditators who have sat for 50 years and still have not really come to grips with their emotional problems. A friend once told me long ago, 'Dhamma has to be the only thing you are interested in'. This takes time for most people to see this.
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by dhammapal »

Theravadin Buddhist monks and nuns aren't helpless, they practice many worldly skills like maintaining monastery buildings. The main difference is that laypeople handle money. Recently I've become interested in Bitcoin Cash which has the potential to lift billions of people out of poverty.
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by purist_andrew »

All,

Thanks for your thoughts and insights.

I guess for me it comes down to practicing mindfulness in everyday life. Ethics are a given but it's easy to fall into the regular worldly routine without mindfulness as it's taken up as something on its own. "A big important test today, homework tonight, I'll be mindful when I'm doing better later on" ... mindfulness should be below and never forgotten as many teachers today say to blend worldly & spiritual... i.e. to make mindfulness the backdrop and let work occur within that domain, not to be taken as something its own and pigeonhole formal practice. As it is said, life is too short to forget practice.

There are enough books to reflect on about practicing mindfulness in daily life, some such as "The Way of Mindfulness" and "The Heart of Buddhist Meditation" and Bhante G's books ("Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness" and Thich Nhat Hanh's (not orthodox but good) "gathas" or phrases to recite at different times of the day to grow mindfulness.

Thanks again for your insights everyone, I will contemplate and try to be more mindful.

Also I practice the Brahma Viharas sometimes at different points, this is right intention too.

Thanks.
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by samsarictravelling »

purist_andrew wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pm Hello friends,

Today I want to ask whether, and to what degree, one can and ought to have worldly success (such as making much of school and work) and still practice Dhamma.

I am now in my mid 30s and am a student at the local community college. I tend to be very intelligent with academia and capable of getting good grades; my GPA is 3.87 and I am in the honors program.

However, I do not know to what degree it is in accordance with the Dhamma to chase after this kind of worldly success and felicity.

On the one hand, according to Bhikkhu Bodhi's new translation of the Suttanipata and its commentaries, secular learning (in addition to Dhamma learning) is one of the 30 or 40-something blessings in the Maha Mangala Sutta. It was explained that this sutta is to develop and acquire all the good things in this life, the next world, and Nibbana.

However, what immediately occurs to me is whether this type of success goes against the spirit of the Dhamma... for example, there are suttas that discourage one from speculating on the origin and destiny of the world... this is exactly the type of secular learning that school provides. In addition, I am afraid that a large amount of the stuff I will learn, discuss, write about could be considered idle chatter since it is not about the Dhamma.

I think that modern day teachers, such as Nyanaponika Thera and Mahasi Sayadaw have taught that to have practical success in Dhamma (in today's society) practice it's good to distance oneself from this kind of thing and spend long periods of time in meditation.

So, to me, the choice is either take the Buddha's word on ideal conditions of a life of "blessings" (including worldly) or that of modern day meditation teachers rooted in their practical experience of setting aside long periods of time for meditation (in renunciation of "this world") .

... like Webu Sayadaw used to teach aspire only to the happiness of Nibbana, not any worldly happiness.

Short of making much of school, honor society, being a participant in class, etc, I could use school just as a means to get work and financial independence to practice Dhamma. But I don't know which to pursue, school/career as just a means for independence or to chase after worldly success and happiness and make much of it.

Thanks for your feedback in advance,
Andrew
In my opinion:

You just have to choose:

Do you want to give up this world, or do you want to live in it?

The more you want to give up this world, the more you would give up money, I guess?

If you are unsure, I think that means you are still layman-minded (like me). So just enjoy the world, until you can give it up. There is no harm in enjoying the world, if your mind does not want to give up the world. If you give up the world, then come back to it, you might cause instability to your support of your parent(s)?

Some become monks, then return to the layman life, I guess.

I read in the past, there are five professions one should abstain from:

1. Trading in beings
2. Trading in meat
3. Trading in intoxicants
4. Trading in weapons
5. Trading in poisons

A person who lives in the world can make great kamma by acts of generosity -- money, and Dhamma (The greatest gift is Dhamma, I heard).

You might have a long way to go to become enlightened, or not, I don't know. (I myself maybe do.) Or it could be a shorter way (for either of us), if one really wanted to attain Nibbana, I guess. I don't know.

I was thinking of putting this as a link somewhere, and don't know if it will help or harm you, now that I think of putting it in my reply to you. Hope it doesn't harm your life by giving you any wrong idea about what to do with your life, but just enjoy it instead -- if it would be conducive to your harm if you got any wrong idea(s)/plan(s) from it:

From Wikipedia, the movie 'The Razor's Edge' with Bill Murray: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Razor ... 1984_film)

Again, from Wikipedia:

The book was twice adapted into film, first in 1946 starring Tyrone Power and Gene Tierney, and Herbert Marshall as Maugham and Anne Baxter as Sophie, and then a 1984 adaptation starring Bill Murray.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Razor%27s_Edge
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by purist_andrew »

samsarictravelling wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:19 pm [
You just have to choose:

Do you want to give up this world, or do you want to live in it?

The more you want to give up this world, the more you would give up money, I guess?

If you are unsure, I think that means you are still layman-minded (like me). So just enjoy the world, until you can give it up. There is no harm in enjoying the world, if your mind does not want to give up the world. If you give up the world, then come back to it, you might cause instability to your support of your parent(s)?
I am definitely inclined to renunciation but I still have interest in my field of what will be my profession, computer programming. I tend to be idle and have aspirations towards worldly things that I think will bring well-being, but the more I actually do these things the more I realize their shallow nature and that the Dhamma would bring better well-being. I think the worldly desires can be distractions from the path.

I feel inclined to "renounce the world" as a result of experience with my practice years ago but I'm not practicing consistently these days and need something to get me through the weeks and years which is now school and provides some worldly well being and "maintenance". However Buddha has suggested in this sutta is a blessing to have good things in this life, the next, and realize nibbana. To have all good things, wordly and spiritual So you see my dilemma... will taking some worldly ways instead of giving up the world enhance things or be a hindrance to single-minded renunciation? Do we have to cut out the worldly to seek the highest good?

At this point however I do not want to make such drastic lifestyle changes as becoming a monk... I'd have to do community events, teaching, travelling, leading the lay services, and so on as they do in my local Buddhist Vihara and not a lot of time for meditation. But a layperson can be austere on his own terms and meditate all his free time.

For now I will listen to the advice of another poster who suggested a little worldly felicity can help set the stage for spiritual practice. It's almost necessary in the absence of consistent and significant practice to have something to aim for (school, honors, etc, that I am capable of), until such time as I can build a better foundation of ethics and meditation.

But I think someone who really wanted to renounce the world would discard this type of benefit or "felicity" for austere effortful meditation without a second thought. Still, it's something for now and may be a foundation for cultivating mindfulness practice in daily life. Does anyone have any other daily mindfulness resources besides the ones I mentioned above?

One last point. Bhikkhu Pesala has just posted this link: http://www.aimwell.org/path.html#Appendices which equates talking about the origin and destiny of the world or universe as idle chatter, leading to rebirth in the unfortunate realms. I could think of a thousand more examples of this kind of talk that go on in a typical classroom setting.

Please share thoughts samsarictravelling and others.
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Re: Worldly success & Dhamma practice

Post by samsarictravelling »

purist_andrew wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:18 pm
samsarictravelling wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:19 pm [
You just have to choose:

Do you want to give up this world, or do you want to live in it?

The more you want to give up this world, the more you would give up money, I guess?

If you are unsure, I think that means you are still layman-minded (like me). So just enjoy the world, until you can give it up. There is no harm in enjoying the world, if your mind does not want to give up the world. If you give up the world, then come back to it, you might cause instability to your support of your parent(s)?
I am definitely inclined to renunciation but I still have interest in my field of what will be my profession, computer programming. I tend to be idle and have aspirations towards worldly things that I think will bring well-being, but the more I actually do these things the more I realize their shallow nature and that the Dhamma would bring better well-being. I think the worldly desires can be distractions from the path.

I feel inclined to "renounce the world" as a result of experience with my practice years ago but I'm not practicing consistently these days and need something to get me through the weeks and years which is now school and provides some worldly well being and "maintenance". However Buddha has suggested in this sutta is a blessing to have good things in this life, the next, and realize nibbana. To have all good things, wordly and spiritual So you see my dilemma... will taking some worldly ways instead of giving up the world enhance things or be a hindrance to single-minded renunciation? Do we have to cut out the worldly to seek the highest good?

At this point however I do not want to make such drastic lifestyle changes as becoming a monk... I'd have to do community events, teaching, travelling, leading the lay services, and so on as they do in my local Buddhist Vihara and not a lot of time for meditation. But a layperson can be austere on his own terms and meditate all his free time.

For now I will listen to the advice of another poster who suggested a little worldly felicity can help set the stage for spiritual practice. It's almost necessary in the absence of consistent and significant practice to have something to aim for (school, honors, etc, that I am capable of), until such time as I can build a better foundation of ethics and meditation.

But I think someone who really wanted to renounce the world would discard this type of benefit or "felicity" for austere effortful meditation without a second thought. Still, it's something for now and may be a foundation for cultivating mindfulness practice in daily life. Does anyone have any other daily mindfulness resources besides the ones I mentioned above?

One last point. Bhikkhu Pesala has just posted this link: http://www.aimwell.org/path.html#Appendices which equates talking about the origin and destiny of the world or universe as idle chatter, leading to rebirth in the unfortunate realms. I could think of a thousand more examples of this kind of talk that go on in a typical classroom setting.

Please share thoughts samsarictravelling and others.
You could do the daily or regular meditation most serious spiritually-minded laypeople do. I in my life am not a serious meditation-doing type. I cannot even sit half-lotus, not to mention full lotus position on the ground. I just sat on a raised seat with legs normally crossed. I can meditate by sitting on a chair, where my back is easier to keep erect. So, if you like meditation, that surely is the way the Buddha taught. You'd be better than me in that respect. So it would be your serious buddhist practice as a layperson. It would be the right thing to do. When I did quite a bit of meditation years ago, I found my mind had a kind of freedom and peace that was like a residual effect of my sitting meditation.

In the Jatakas, there was a king who led a hermetic life on the top level of his home after he became spiritually-minded, then later left his kingdom and became a homeless spiritual person/saint* (the term 'monk' would be used by people to call that type of person nowadays, I guess).

samsarictravelling

*From dictionary: saint: a person of great holiness, virtue, or benevolence
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/saint

P.S. About the 'animal talk':

I read somewhere something like this, but it now maybe has added to it my own idea(s):

If you look at the Dhammapada, there are teachings on the layman level, up to teachings on the monkhood level and high spiritual attainment levels. You don't try to practice everything, but just the practice that is on your level. If you're a layman and not of a high spiritual level, you practice what teachings found in the Dhammapada that would benefit you to practice, and appreciate the teachings that are talking of a higher spiritual person's way. If you are of a higher spiritual level (layman or monk), you can practice what Dhammapada teachings that accrue to your high spiritual state in life. So about the 'animal talk': that would accrue to higher minded layman and monks.

Ai (Dinh) Le <-- my full real name. lol
Last edited by samsarictravelling on Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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