Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:28 am

Perhaps Namarupa could be a state between pure Nama and Pure Rupa.
:shrug:
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mikenz66
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:07 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:28 am
Perhaps Namarupa could be a state between pure Nama and Pure Rupa.
:shrug:
I don't understand what you are getting at. What do you mean by a "state" ?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:18 am

Nama&Rupa = Aggregates = Rupa/Arupa Existence gaining footing int the Deathless. :popcorn:
Nama&Rupa = Impermanent, Possible
Deathless = Uncaused, Non-Impermanent, Possible
Here a clear statement for you Inviting refutation.

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How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
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"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

SarathW
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:55 am

What do you mean by a "state" ?
I did not mean Gandhabba here.
I just wonder whether there is an intermediate thing between Nama and Rupa.
ie: You cant say it is Nama or Rupa. It is a combination of both.
This is just another view.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:40 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:18 am
Nama&Rupa = Aggregates
If nama-rupa = aggregates then the Buddha would have called the 4th link aggregates. But the Buddha obviously did not do this.

James Tan
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:33 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:28 am
Perhaps Namarupa could be a state between pure Nama and Pure Rupa.
:shrug:
Hi sarath ,

Unfortunately , you could not get your answer from sc forum , so you try to find out here . The scholars and sophisticated poster there unable to give you a definite answer so is here . This is a myth for over thousands years .
Only a handful of people has the answer .

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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:35 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:40 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:18 am
Nama&Rupa = Aggregates
If nama-rupa = aggregates then the Buddha would have called the 4th link aggregates. But the Buddha obviously did not do this.
Agree , however , you can't give an answer , do you ?

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DooDoot
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:55 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:35 am
Agree , however , you can't give an answer , do you ?
Thanks James. I recall making many posts on this thread. I proposed 'nama-rupa' refers to 'inclinations' of the 'mind-body'.

James Tan
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:55 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:35 am
Agree , however , you can't give an answer , do you ?
Thanks James. I recall making many posts on this thread. I proposed 'nama-rupa' refers to 'inclinations' of the 'mind-body'.
Ok , but how do you relate it in the dependent origination and dependent cessation to consciousness and six senses base ?

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DooDoot
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:51 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:55 am
Ok , but how do you relate it in the dependent origination and dependent cessation to consciousness and six senses base ?
'Inclination' of 'mind-body' arises due to ignorance & the sankharas. Consciousness will also simultaneously arise & be enslaved by ignorance & sankharas in this process. When the mind-body incline (such as are affected by sensual desire), the sense organs will incline to seek out sense objects externally.

For example, you try to meditate but ignorance attacks your mind-body with sankharas of sensual desire. So you stop meditating & the sense organs look for sense objects on the internet to gain sensual pleasure from.

But if the mind-body has mindfulness, instead of stimulating the external sense bases, mindfulness of the mind-body will calm the sankharas, attain samadhi, and, with vipassana, destroy ignorance; which is dependent cessation.

SamKR
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by SamKR » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:49 am

My understanding is that namarupa literally means name-form. I don't like "named form" because it may (?) imply that there can be not-named forms or forms without names. If there is no such implication then "named form" is fine too.

Name simply means label or conceptual designation, and form simply means shape or anything that appears to be (as visual shape, auditory shape or sound, sensation-shape, thoughts-forms, etc.) on the basis of such naming, designation or reification.

Without names or conceptual designations (nama) there cannot be formation (rupa) of any distinct and discrete thing having a boundary (name provides boundaries to "things", and thus things are fabricated). And, without basis for such formation it is impossible to name anything. So, for a "thing" to be, it has to be namarupa. They are inseparable: you cannot imagine a name without form to name, and vice versa. Everything in this world is namarupa, including the body and the world itself.

James Tan
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:51 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:55 am
Ok , but how do you relate it in the dependent origination and dependent cessation to consciousness and six senses base ?
'Inclination' of 'mind-body' arises due to ignorance & the sankharas. Consciousness will also simultaneously arise & be enslaved by ignorance & sankharas in this process. When the mind-body incline (such as are affected by sensual desire), the sense organs will incline to seek out sense objects externally.

For example, you try to meditate but ignorance attacks your mind-body with sankharas of sensual desire. So you stop meditating & the sense organs look for sense objects on the internet to gain sensual pleasure from.

But if the mind-body has mindfulness, instead of stimulating the external sense bases, mindfulness of the mind-body will calm the sankharas, attain samadhi, and, with vipassana, destroy ignorance; which is dependent cessation.
I would think mind body is not compatible with namarupa , because rupa is broader . From the dependent origination , ignorance to sankhara to consciousness to nama rupa to six senses base ,
if the six senses base here is referring to the next life , then the mindbody (namarupa) give rise to new six senses base ?

James Tan
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:26 am

SamKR wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:49 am
My understanding is that namarupa literally means name-form. I don't like "named form" because it may (?) imply that there can be not-named forms or forms without names. If there is no such implication then "named form" is fine too.

Name simply means label or conceptual designation, and form simply means shape or anything that appears to be (as visual shape, auditory shape or sound, sensation-shape, thoughts-forms, etc.) on the basis of such naming, designation or reification.

Without names or conceptual designations (nama) there cannot be formation (rupa) of any distinct and discrete thing having a boundary (name provides boundaries to "things", and thus things are fabricated). And, without basis for such formation it is impossible to name anything. So, for a "thing" to be, it has to be namarupa. They are inseparable: you cannot imagine a name without form to name, and vice versa. Everything in this world is namarupa, including the body and the world itself.
That's where you went wrong . It seems Sujato also translated it as such which is IMO is not correct . Nama is not naming . Can you refer any sutta stated that ?

SarathW
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:41 am

if the six senses base here is referring to the next life , then the mindbody (namarupa) give rise to new six senses base ?
Sometimes I wonder Namarupa related to the first few weeks of the embryo where the only mind is there no other five Ayatanas formed yet.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
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Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:09 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:41 am
if the six senses base here is referring to the next life , then the mindbody (namarupa) give rise to new six senses base ?
Sometimes I wonder Namarupa related to the first few weeks of the embryo where the only mind is there no other five Ayatanas formed yet.
The embryo does not fit into the dependent origination .

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