Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Saengnapha
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:37 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:07 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:14 am
Why? Because there is nothing within our toolbox that can rectify this. To me, this is the beginning of disenchantment, dispassion, and the letting go of volitional activity like 'will', trying to understand, and seeking in general.
I find this a puzzling comment, since the suttas clearly provide a "toolbox", including satipatthana and vipassana, developing insight into the 3 marks, etc. And in the suttas it is insight which leads to dispassion and letting go.

I agree that we cannot think ourselves out of ignorance, but that is a separate matter.
Yes, I agree with you that we have a toolbox that can develop insight into the limitation of the toolbox. This would be the beginning of disenchantment that leads to dispassion and letting go. The toolbox is satipatthana, in Buddhism, or introspective attention understood in the proper way, not concentration or breath meditation. Those are strategies that don't allow real vipassana which changes the quality of your thinking. All the volitional activities begin to wither because they are useless and ill conceived. Dispassion is a factor that seems like a necessary condition for further letting go. Dispassion and letting go includes the disinterest in teachings and all becomings as these are also conditioned dhammas. No attachments. It's no wonder Jesus said it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a 'rich' man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Rich also means full of knowledge.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:10 pm

James Tan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am
You are not required to rectify it because that it is something false , seeing itself is rectification . Seeing itself is elimination . It is two fold , first there is a will , once the motor is on you are on autopilot . You don't need other tool . The process of un-conditioning may take you quite some time .
Or you can call it non doing .
Is this something that is your experience or is it something that 'sounded' true that you've read?. If seeing is elimination, nibbana would be at hand, currently. There is a big difference between living this and thinking about this, as you know. I don't think seeing is a tool. I think it is a hope, another mental activity that wants to change your current 'state' of attachment, becoming. According to the teachings, disenchantment is the necessary condition for dispassion. Disenchantment is about no longer believing in your own power, will, desire, that it is somehow going to give you true sight, and bring the taste of eternal peace. All of that has to stop, methinks. It is a real surrendering.

My biggest problem with Theravada teachings is that it doesn't really address this 'giving up' properly. It is an intellectual path that appeals more to the scholarly, the analytical, the model-makers. The focus on meditation seems 'forced'. The Buddha entered the state of nirodha samapatti. This was a complete giving up of existence, what we all call 'our life'. His understanding of paticca samupadda was a revelation to him, with giving up as condition. He didn't understand DO before he gave up and this is why these conversations that appear as this thread and many others don't conclusively answer any of our questions. We are nowhere near ready to give up because we want those answers and we think it is within our power to get them. This is the great deception we give ourselves. Sorry to ramble, James. None of this is a personal criticism of you and hope you don't take as such.

James Tan
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:20 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:10 pm
James Tan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am
You are not required to rectify it because that it is something false , seeing itself is rectification . Seeing itself is elimination . It is two fold , first there is a will , once the motor is on you are on autopilot . You don't need other tool . The process of un-conditioning may take you quite some time .
Or you can call it non doing .
Is this something that is your experience or is it something that 'sounded' true that you've read?. If seeing is elimination, nibbana would be at hand, currently. There is a big difference between living this and thinking about this, as you know. I don't think seeing is a tool. I think it is a hope, another mental activity that wants to change your current 'state' of attachment, becoming. According to the teachings, disenchantment is the necessary condition for dispassion. Disenchantment is about no longer believing in your own power, will, desire, that it is somehow going to give you true sight, and bring the taste of eternal peace. All of that has to stop, methinks. It is a real surrendering.

My biggest problem with Theravada teachings is that it doesn't really address this 'giving up' properly. It is an intellectual path that appeals more to the scholarly, the analytical, the model-makers. The focus on meditation seems 'forced'. The Buddha entered the state of nirodha samapatti. This was a complete giving up of existence, what we all call 'our life'. His understanding of paticca samupadda was a revelation to him, with giving up as condition. He didn't understand DO before he gave up and this is why these conversations that appear as this thread and many others don't conclusively answer any of our questions. We are nowhere near ready to give up because we want those answers and we think it is within our power to get them. This is the great deception we give ourselves. Sorry to ramble, James. None of this is a personal criticism of you and hope you don't take as such.
So , we all live in deception , unfortunately ,
It seems that no one here is enlightened , what do you reckon to do then ?

Ps . Afaik , many things in Theravada teachings were corrupted , enlightenment need not attain nirodha samapatti , the N8FP didn't include it .
Many scholars also can't give their head to any definite answer most of the time .
Last edited by James Tan on Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:28 pm

James Tan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:20 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:10 pm
James Tan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am
You are not required to rectify it because that it is something false , seeing itself is rectification . Seeing itself is elimination . It is two fold , first there is a will , once the motor is on you are on autopilot . You don't need other tool . The process of un-conditioning may take you quite some time .
Or you can call it non doing .
Is this something that is your experience or is it something that 'sounded' true that you've read?. If seeing is elimination, nibbana would be at hand, currently. There is a big difference between living this and thinking about this, as you know. I don't think seeing is a tool. I think it is a hope, another mental activity that wants to change your current 'state' of attachment, becoming. According to the teachings, disenchantment is the necessary condition for dispassion. Disenchantment is about no longer believing in your own power, will, desire, that it is somehow going to give you true sight, and bring the taste of eternal peace. All of that has to stop, methinks. It is a real surrendering.

My biggest problem with Theravada teachings is that it doesn't really address this 'giving up' properly. It is an intellectual path that appeals more to the scholarly, the analytical, the model-makers. The focus on meditation seems 'forced'. The Buddha entered the state of nirodha samapatti. This was a complete giving up of existence, what we all call 'our life'. His understanding of paticca samupadda was a revelation to him, with giving up as condition. He didn't understand DO before he gave up and this is why these conversations that appear as this thread and many others don't conclusively answer any of our questions. We are nowhere near ready to give up because we want those answers and we think it is within our power to get them. This is the great deception we give ourselves. Sorry to ramble, James. None of this is a personal criticism of you and hope you don't take as such.
So , we all live in deception ,
It seems that no one here is enlightened , what do you reckon to do then ?
Do? lol. I thought that was what my post was all about! You have to come to the point where doing is no longer the point.

James Tan
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:42 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:28 pm
James Tan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:20 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:10 pm

Is this something that is your experience or is it something that 'sounded' true that you've read?. If seeing is elimination, nibbana would be at hand, currently. There is a big difference between living this and thinking about this, as you know. I don't think seeing is a tool. I think it is a hope, another mental activity that wants to change your current 'state' of attachment, becoming. According to the teachings, disenchantment is the necessary condition for dispassion. Disenchantment is about no longer believing in your own power, will, desire, that it is somehow going to give you true sight, and bring the taste of eternal peace. All of that has to stop, methinks. It is a real surrendering.

My biggest problem with Theravada teachings is that it doesn't really address this 'giving up' properly. It is an intellectual path that appeals more to the scholarly, the analytical, the model-makers. The focus on meditation seems 'forced'. The Buddha entered the state of nirodha samapatti. This was a complete giving up of existence, what we all call 'our life'. His understanding of paticca samupadda was a revelation to him, with giving up as condition. He didn't understand DO before he gave up and this is why these conversations that appear as this thread and many others don't conclusively answer any of our questions. We are nowhere near ready to give up because we want those answers and we think it is within our power to get them. This is the great deception we give ourselves. Sorry to ramble, James. None of this is a personal criticism of you and hope you don't take as such.
So , we all live in deception ,
It seems that no one here is enlightened , what do you reckon to do then ?
Do? lol. I thought that was what my post was all about! You have to come to the point where doing is no longer the point.
Oh , you have come to the point , finally .

James Tan
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:15 pm

In case anyone is interested , according to reverse order of DO sequence , we have to eliminate ignorant(darkness) first , then follows by sankhara(volitional activities) , and so on .
At the links of craving follows by clinging and then becoming , this part is a much later sequence comparing to ignorant and volitional activities .

Therefore , one can see , why after eliminating darkness , one already has the "dhamma eyes" , there after , one can "sees" clearly , seeing therefore is part of eliminating the further fetters , then continuing to abandon the volitional activities , further more after this is follows by the turn to severe the "attachment"(clinging) . This is in line with Buddha's teachings .
To end birth therefore ending death is still quite some distance .

Saengnapha
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:38 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:15 pm
In case anyone is interested , according to reverse order of DO sequence , we have to eliminate ignorant(darkness) first , then follows by sankhara(volitional activities) , and so on .
At the links of craving follows by clinging and then becoming , this part is a much later sequence comparing to ignorant and volitional activities .

Therefore , one can see , why after eliminating darkness , one already has the "dhamma eyes" , there after , one can "sees" clearly , seeing therefore is part of eliminating the further fetters , then continuing to abandon the volitional activities , further more after this is follows by the turn to severe the "attachment"(clinging) . This is in line with Buddha's teachings .
To end birth therefore ending death is still quite some distance .
The Buddha's actual experience was first nirodha samapatti, then the revelation of how DO creates the world, things, and personalizes it. When you end birth, death is simultaneously eliminated. There is not one without the other. You can't think this out as you are attempting. You can try to, but, well...lol

U.G. describes nirodha samapatti as the event that he calls 'calamity'. After this, you begin to see things as they are without the veil of ignorance. It is a transcendental event. It is not like having a samadhi experience.

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1490
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Bundokji » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:38 pm

The Buddha's actual experience was first nirodha samapatti, then the revelation of how DO creates the world, things, and personalizes it. When you end birth, death is simultaneously eliminated. There is not one without the other. You can't think this out as you are attempting. You can try to, but, well...lol

U.G. describes nirodha samapatti as the event that he calls 'calamity'. After this, you begin to see things as they are without the veil of ignorance. It is a transcendental event. It is not like having a samadhi experience.
How do you know what UG said is correct? You seem to have too much faith in him
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:04 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:38 pm

The Buddha's actual experience was first nirodha samapatti, then the revelation of how DO creates the world, things, and personalizes it. When you end birth, death is simultaneously eliminated. There is not one without the other. You can't think this out as you are attempting. You can try to, but, well...lol

U.G. describes nirodha samapatti as the event that he calls 'calamity'. After this, you begin to see things as they are without the veil of ignorance. It is a transcendental event. It is not like having a samadhi experience.
How do you know what UG said is correct? You seem to have too much faith in him
How do you know what the Buddha said was correct? I had the advantage of knowing U.G. personally, questioning him, arguing with him, seeing him in all kinds of situations for many years. I never saw a moment of anything that left a doubt in his authenticity. He never waivered. What is extraordinary to me is that so many so called 'Buddhists' can't see it because he is not a Buddhist!

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1490
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Bundokji » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:30 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:04 pm
How do you know what the Buddha said was correct? I had the advantage of knowing U.G. personally, questioning him, arguing with him, seeing him in all kinds of situations for many years. I never saw a moment of anything that left a doubt in his authenticity. He never waivered. What is extraordinary to me is that so many so called 'Buddhists' can't see it because he is not a Buddhist!
It might be an advantage not to know someone personally so you don't fall under their spell. What i can assure you is that following the Buddha's teachings reduced my suffering and that the Buddhist path is worth taking regardless if it produces a complete elimination of suffering, it simply is the best way to live life, guided by morality, wisdom and mindfulness.

In contrast, UG, by his words, has nothing to offer (except a word salad). He even described himself once as a dog barking! He insisted that he cannot help people, which put his followers into a dilemma in the sense that they follow or believe in someone who admits that he has nothing to teach. So, maybe i believe UG more than you do and i take him by his words. It has nothing to do with him being a Buddhist or not.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

James Tan
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:35 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:38 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:15 pm
In case anyone is interested , according to reverse order of DO sequence , we have to eliminate ignorant(darkness) first , then follows by sankhara(volitional activities) , and so on .
At the links of craving follows by clinging and then becoming , this part is a much later sequence comparing to ignorant and volitional activities .

Therefore , one can see , why after eliminating darkness , one already has the "dhamma eyes" , there after , one can "sees" clearly , seeing therefore is part of eliminating the further fetters , then continuing to abandon the volitional activities , further more after this is follows by the turn to severe the "attachment"(clinging) . This is in line with Buddha's teachings .
To end birth therefore ending death is still quite some distance .
The Buddha's actual experience was first nirodha samapatti, then the revelation of how DO creates the world, things, and personalizes it. When you end birth, death is simultaneously eliminated. There is not one without the other. You can't think this out as you are attempting. You can try to, but, well...lol

U.G. describes nirodha samapatti as the event that he calls 'calamity'. After this, you begin to see things as they are without the veil of ignorance. It is a transcendental event. It is not like having a samadhi experience.
Firstly , Buddha's teachings doesn't include nirodha samapatti . AS explain in noble eight right path . Nirodha samapatti , this actually is Jains teachings . Many teachings was corrupted .
Further more , many arahant disciples did not attained nirodha samapatti , this is second point . Third , we can not equate UG calamity with Buddha's enlightenment . Of course , you may do so , think so . There is something Buddha's quite different with UG . Although personally I really like what he described .

Saengnapha
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:56 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:35 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:38 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:15 pm
In case anyone is interested , according to reverse order of DO sequence , we have to eliminate ignorant(darkness) first , then follows by sankhara(volitional activities) , and so on .
At the links of craving follows by clinging and then becoming , this part is a much later sequence comparing to ignorant and volitional activities .

Therefore , one can see , why after eliminating darkness , one already has the "dhamma eyes" , there after , one can "sees" clearly , seeing therefore is part of eliminating the further fetters , then continuing to abandon the volitional activities , further more after this is follows by the turn to severe the "attachment"(clinging) . This is in line with Buddha's teachings .
To end birth therefore ending death is still quite some distance .
The Buddha's actual experience was first nirodha samapatti, then the revelation of how DO creates the world, things, and personalizes it. When you end birth, death is simultaneously eliminated. There is not one without the other. You can't think this out as you are attempting. You can try to, but, well...lol

U.G. describes nirodha samapatti as the event that he calls 'calamity'. After this, you begin to see things as they are without the veil of ignorance. It is a transcendental event. It is not like having a samadhi experience.
Firstly , Buddha's teachings doesn't include nirodha samapatti . AS explain in noble eight right path . Nirodha samapatti , this actually is Jains teachings . Many teachings was corrupted .
Further more , many arahant disciples did not attained nirodha samapatti , this is second point . Third , we can not equate UG calamity with Buddha's enlightenment . Of course , you may do so , think so . There is something Buddha's quite different with UG . Although personally I really like what he described .
I'll leave it to you to argue with the scholar's and to draw whatever conclusions that benefit your own life.

James Tan
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:04 pm

:quote:
:toast:

UG : all you ever have is but knowledge .

Saengnapha
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:05 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:56 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:35 pm


The Buddha's actual experience was first nirodha samapatti, then the revelation of how DO creates the world, things, and personalizes it. When you end birth, death is simultaneously eliminated. There is not one without the other. You can't think this out as you are attempting. You can try to, but, well...lol

U.G. describes nirodha samapatti as the event that he calls 'calamity'. After this, you begin to see things as they are without the veil of ignorance. It is a transcendental event. It is not like having a samadhi experience.
Firstly , Buddha's teachings doesn't include nirodha samapatti . AS explain in noble eight right path . Nirodha samapatti , this actually is Jains teachings . Many teachings was corrupted .
Further more , many arahant disciples did not attained nirodha samapatti , this is second point . Third , we can not equate UG calamity with Buddha's enlightenment . Of course , you may do so , think so . There is something Buddha's quite different with UG . Although personally I really like what he described .
You should ask some of the more sophisticated posters who are familiar with suttas to point you to the Buddha's teaching on nirodha samapatti and what it is, like Doo Doot. It is an important milestone in the Buddha's awakening. I can see you are not familiar with this.

U.G. said many times that each person that comes into this natural state will be necessarily unique in their expression of it. They will also affect the consciousness of all beings in ways we can't understand.

James Tan
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by James Tan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:56 am

Well , like you said , i'll leave it to you and anyone with this and to draw whatever conclusions that benefit your own life.

Dinsdale
Posts: 5614
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:36 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:05 am
U.G. said many times that each person that comes into this natural state will be necessarily unique in their expression of it. They will also affect the consciousness of all beings in ways we can't understand.
It seems like you are trying to interpret Buddhist teachings through a UG lens - that is bound to be tricky!
Buddha save me from new-agers!

chownah
Posts: 7312
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by chownah » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:03 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:36 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:05 am
U.G. said many times that each person that comes into this natural state will be necessarily unique in their expression of it. They will also affect the consciousness of all beings in ways we can't understand.
It seems like you are trying to interpret Buddhist teachings through a UG lens - that is bound to be tricky!
....and probably belongs in the Connections to other Paths forum.
chownah

Saengnapha
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:42 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:36 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:05 am
U.G. said many times that each person that comes into this natural state will be necessarily unique in their expression of it. They will also affect the consciousness of all beings in ways we can't understand.
It seems like you are trying to interpret Buddhist teachings through a UG lens - that is bound to be tricky!
It's the same as you would do through a Buddhist lens. But, I already know that because of the terminology and the differences in the cultures of 2500 years ago, backgrounds of individuals who been awakened at various times in history, etc., they will never match. That really doesn't bother me. But there are similarities that I've found, especially in the way that Bhante P talks about the Buddhist process and his commentaries on suttas, etc. Not everyone is going to rally around one teacher, but for most people, having one teacher is extremely beneficial, especially an awakened one. I'm not even sure that many of the posters here have ever had a close relationship with a teacher face to face. For all I know, most of this might be simply from reading or listening to youtube or such things.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:46 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:03 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:36 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:05 am
U.G. said many times that each person that comes into this natural state will be necessarily unique in their expression of it. They will also affect the consciousness of all beings in ways we can't understand.
It seems like you are trying to interpret Buddhist teachings through a UG lens - that is bound to be tricky!
....and probably belongs in the Connections to other Paths forum.
chownah
Do you have personal objections to me commenting on U.G. outside of the 'Connections To Other Paths' forum? If so, I can refrain, especially if the mods don't approve. I haven't heard anything from the mods at all about not posting here.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19585
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Nāmarūpa - Named Form?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:08 pm

Greetings Saengnapha,
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:46 pm
Do you have personal objections to me commenting on U.G. outside of the 'Connections To Other Paths' forum? If so, I can refrain, especially if the mods don't approve. I haven't heard anything from the mods at all about not posting here.
It is off-topic and not relevant to a General Theravada discussion, so Chownah is correct.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: budo, retrofuturist, Yahoo [Bot] and 87 guests