Re: Why so few Western Buddhists?
Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:56 am
Indeed there is no one country or culture who owns the patent on idiocy.
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You couldn't be more wrong.....I'm not wanting to be offensive and I am not dealing in hyperbole but with regard to thailand you couldn't be more wrong. Drinking alcohol is culturally virtuous in thailand.....without a doubt....Saengnapha wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:24 pm Somehow drinking is tied into their fabric of life. SE Asia and India are not like that outside of the expat groups.
Have to agree with chownah (imagine that!!)chownah wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:33 amYou couldn't be more wrong.....I'm not wanting to be offensive and I am not dealing in hyperbole but with regard to thailand you couldn't be more wrong. Drinking alcohol is culturally virtuous in thailand.....without a doubt....Saengnapha wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:24 pm Somehow drinking is tied into their fabric of life. SE Asia and India are not like that outside of the expat groups.
chownah
I guess I need to get out more.chownah wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:33 amYou couldn't be more wrong.....I'm not wanting to be offensive and I am not dealing in hyperbole but with regard to thailand you couldn't be more wrong. Drinking alcohol is culturally virtuous in thailand.....without a doubt....Saengnapha wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:24 pm Somehow drinking is tied into their fabric of life. SE Asia and India are not like that outside of the expat groups.
chownah
Okay no problem I won't ask about your object. Is there a vinaya rule about that? It's good that you keep me right, I know a little bit about the vinaya and the fact that monks have to be careful about talking about attainmentsSubharo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:56 amIt's getting less and less oppressive all the time. Actually, I've never been happier. These posts are more like a public service announcement, so that others can watch out for the tricks before they get played. With any luck, these tricks will get used less and less, **which I feel is an essential ingredient to Buddhism actually spreading more in the west**. So this grumbling does have have a higher purpose, which is a more transparent Buddhism in the future (and I feel Westerners crucially need transparency in order to trust Buddhism).
My meditation is going quite well these days (but please don't ask me to attest to any sort of attainments). These days, it's easily reward enough just to meditate, or even to simply be mindful of my current object of meditation for all of about 5 seconds. That's what's keeping me in the robes. Also, please don't ask me what my object of meditation is. The particulars of my practice is something I try to keep private.
On the subject of transparency, take a look at how "transparent" Westerner countries tend to be, as compared to how "transparent" traditional Buddhist countries tend to be. Now perhaps you can see what I'm getting at?
@No_Mind, can you see how I'm attempting to answer your question in a constructive, yet deeply-uncomfortable-to-some way?
It's a crazy old world we live in eh?No_Mind wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:56 amClearly these people don't. They have given up critical thinking entirely.
The Flat Earth International Conference in Raleigh, North Carolina, attracted hundreds of attendees who believe the shape of the Earth is a disc instead of a sphere.
And neither do people who believe in caste based discrimination as some do in India and also (surprise, surprise) in Japan.
Do you know in Japan a grown man wanting to have sex with a young girl (about ten year old) is considered a normal urge? Until 2014 child pornography was legal to own in Japan. Is that critical thinking?
There are examples from every place on earth .. when people suspended critical thinking .. Brexit for example.
No_MInd
You could read about Parajika 4, in the Buddhist Monastic Code, Vol. 1.
people who wear robes and staying in monasteries doesn't make them recluse.No_Mind wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:56 amClearly these people don't. They have given up critical thinking entirely.
The Flat Earth International Conference in Raleigh, North Carolina, attracted hundreds of attendees who believe the shape of the Earth is a disc instead of a sphere.
And neither do people who believe in caste based discrimination as some do in India and also (surprise, surprise) in Japan.
Do you know in Japan a grown man wanting to have sex with a young girl (about ten year old) is considered a normal urge? Until 2014 child pornography was legal to own in Japan. Is that critical thinking?
There are examples from every place on earth .. when people suspended critical thinking .. Brexit for example.
No_MInd
Once you use your psychic powers to embrace my mind with your own, and catch me red-handed posting on this forum without any serenity or any Brahmavihara, it is at that time that I will take your complaints seriously. All I am saying here is that I try to make an effort to check in with the state of my heart before posting. This isn't a claim to attainments, which you might be tempted to conclude.
Surely you jest.
There goes another bubble ... Maybe it actually wouldn't make as much difference for my Buddhist practice if I lived in a traditionally Buddhist country as I think it would. For a monk, it probably does, but now I'm not so sure anymore whether it's the same for a layperson. (And, of course, if I would move there, I would be a white lay, female, foreigner -- I wouldn't have it easy.)
That would definitely put a different spin on it. I do know know some expat females that have made a go of it here, otoh, most have complained about the lack of available white men and their preference for Thai women. It really depends on the individual and what they are looking for.binocular wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:32 pmThere goes another bubble ... Maybe it actually wouldn't make as much difference for my Buddhist practice if I lived in a traditionally Buddhist country as I think it would. For a monk, it probably does, but now I'm not so sure anymore whether it's the same for a layperson. (And, of course, if I would move there, I would be a white lay, female, foreigner -- I wouldn't have it easy.)
Subharo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:56 amIt's getting less and less oppressive all the time. Actually, I've never been happier. These posts are more like a public service announcement, so that others can watch out for the tricks before they get played. With any luck, these tricks will get used less and less, **which I feel is an essential ingredient to Buddhism actually spreading more in the west**. So this grumbling does have have a higher purpose, which is a more transparent Buddhism in the future (and I feel Westerners crucially need transparency in order to trust Buddhism).
But does it?Subharo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:07 amI think the West is going to frankly require open, transparent discussions such as this, over virtually all the long-standing controversies and sticking points (that most monks are too cowardly to make a peep about) if the West is ever going to actually fall in love with Buddhism (which will never be a blind act of faith like you hope it somehow will), to a much broader demographic degree like you are hoping in your OP. And furthermore, this hyper-sensitivity, where face-saving is pretty much valued above all, is frankly a very serious fetter to Buddhism spreading in the West.
So this iron-clad "resect for elders" you speak of, can be a good thing (and please don't get me wrong), but can you see how when it grows too large, then this whole overblown "saving face" game destroys the possibility of constructive and meaningful gentlemanly debate, such as I have pointed at here, which holds Buddhism back in the West?