how is idle speech defined for lay followers

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Dhammarakkhito
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how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:48 am

idle chatter leads to hell according to the suttas
i assume anything but the ten topics are not allowed
but for lay people following this seems very difficult or impossible
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:32 pm

hi,
it is talking with no meaning, small talk if you will. simply filling the silence.

Hope this helps
In Truth
Cittasanto
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bodom
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Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by bodom » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:36 pm

From Bhikkhu Bodhi:
Idle chatter is pointless talk, speech that lacks purpose or depth. Such speech communicates nothing of value, but only stirs up the defilements in one's own mind and in others. The Buddha advises that idle talk should be curbed and speech restricted as much as possible to matters of genuine importance. In the case of a monk, the typical subject of the passage just quoted, his words should be selective and concerned primarily with the Dhamma. Lay persons will have more need for affectionate small talk with friends and family, polite conversation with acquaintances, and talk in connection with their line of work. But even then they should be mindful not to let the conversation stray into pastures where the restless mind, always eager for something sweet or spicy to feed on, might find the chance to indulge its defiling propensities.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... d.html#ch4

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

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the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:35 pm

The commentaries describe it as talk without benefit. It is one of the ten unwholesome kammas (dasākusalakammapaṭhā) that can lead to the lower realms.

Ledi Sayādaw, in his Maggaṅga Dīpani describes it thus:

Abstinence from Frivolous Talk
There are certain plays and novels that are of no benefit; they are written merely for the sake of entertainment.

Attha, Dhamma, and Vinaya
Words relating to benefit (attha) are those that could bring long life, health, and honestly acquired wealth in this existence, and good results such as human rebirth, etc., in the next.

Words relating to Dhamma are those that relate to ways and means for attainment of the above‑mentioned good results.

Words relating to Vinaya are those that relate to the rules of conduct for laity and monks, guiding them towards the destruction of greed and hatred.

Words relating to attha, dhamma, and vinaya are not found in all plays and novels. Narrating such plays and novels to others amounts to frivolous talk. Avoidance of such talk is samphappalāpa virati. Thirty‑two types of unbeneficial talk (‘tiracchāna kathā’ lit. ‘animal talk’) are included in samphappalāpa. See the Appendices.

Those who wish to develop wisdom should not waste time indulging in such thirty‑two types of talk. Those who are developing mental calm (samatha) and insight (vipassanā), should know the limit even of speech associated with attha, dhamma, and vinaya.

My personal opinion is that small talk that aims to put others at ease: "How was your journey," etc., is not of no benefit. It is an expression of love and compassion. Telling jokes and shaggy-dog stories mostly meets the criteria for samphappalāpa.

Sometimes humorous anecdotes can be used to illustrate the Dhamma.
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Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:17 pm

what is a shaggy dog story @_@
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:22 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:17 pm
what is a shaggy dog story @_@
If you don't know, then you don't need to know, but it's always useful to know about GIYF.
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Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:53 am

what is giyf?

jk i looked it up. ok
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

rolling_boulder
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Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by rolling_boulder » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:45 pm

In these cases I like to refer to many suttas wherein the Buddha is said to have engaged in various formalities with his interlocutor before going into the Dhamma talk.

just for an example:
So the brahman householders of Sala went to the Blessed One. On arrival, some of them bowed down to the Blessed One and sat to one side. Some of them exchanged courteous greetings with him and, after an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, sat to one side.
So we see that there is nothing wrong with "exchanging courteous greetings." It can be a skillful way to "lubricate" the social discourse. It would certainly be strange to remain silent when exchanging courteous greetings would be demanded by the situation.

Sometimes you have to get friendly with people before you start talking about religion and morality.

RB
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Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:59 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:32 pm
hi,
it is talking with no meaning, small talk if you will. simply filling the silence.

Hope this helps
In Truth
Cittasanto
Good, and if you have to say nothing say nothing while if you have to talk nothing talk nothing. Then there would not be idle talk.

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