how is idle speech defined for lay followers

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

idle chatter leads to hell according to the suttas
i assume anything but the ten topics are not allowed
but for lay people following this seems very difficult or impossible
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Cittasanto »

hi,
it is talking with no meaning, small talk if you will. simply filling the silence.

Hope this helps
In Truth
Cittasanto
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7215
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by bodom »

From Bhikkhu Bodhi:
Idle chatter is pointless talk, speech that lacks purpose or depth. Such speech communicates nothing of value, but only stirs up the defilements in one's own mind and in others. The Buddha advises that idle talk should be curbed and speech restricted as much as possible to matters of genuine importance. In the case of a monk, the typical subject of the passage just quoted, his words should be selective and concerned primarily with the Dhamma. Lay persons will have more need for affectionate small talk with friends and family, polite conversation with acquaintances, and talk in connection with their line of work. But even then they should be mindful not to let the conversation stray into pastures where the restless mind, always eager for something sweet or spicy to feed on, might find the chance to indulge its defiling propensities.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... d.html#ch4

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4644
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

The commentaries describe it as talk without benefit. It is one of the ten unwholesome kammas (dasākusalakammapaṭhā) that can lead to the lower realms.

Ledi Sayādaw, in his Maggaṅga Dīpani describes it thus:

Abstinence from Frivolous Talk
There are certain plays and novels that are of no benefit; they are written merely for the sake of entertainment.

Attha, Dhamma, and Vinaya
Words relating to benefit (attha) are those that could bring long life, health, and honestly acquired wealth in this existence, and good results such as human rebirth, etc., in the next.

Words relating to Dhamma are those that relate to ways and means for attainment of the above‑mentioned good results.

Words relating to Vinaya are those that relate to the rules of conduct for laity and monks, guiding them towards the destruction of greed and hatred.

Words relating to attha, dhamma, and vinaya are not found in all plays and novels. Narrating such plays and novels to others amounts to frivolous talk. Avoidance of such talk is samphappalāpa virati. Thirty‑two types of unbeneficial talk (‘tiracchāna kathā’ lit. ‘animal talk’) are included in samphappalāpa. See the Appendices.

Those who wish to develop wisdom should not waste time indulging in such thirty‑two types of talk. Those who are developing mental calm (samatha) and insight (vipassanā), should know the limit even of speech associated with attha, dhamma, and vinaya.

My personal opinion is that small talk that aims to put others at ease: "How was your journey," etc., is not of no benefit. It is an expression of love and compassion. Telling jokes and shaggy-dog stories mostly meets the criteria for samphappalāpa.

Sometimes humorous anecdotes can be used to illustrate the Dhamma.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

what is a shaggy dog story @_@
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4644
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:17 pm what is a shaggy dog story @_@
If you don't know, then you don't need to know, but it's always useful to know about GIYF.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

what is giyf?

jk i looked it up. ok
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
rolling_boulder
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:01 am

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by rolling_boulder »

In these cases I like to refer to many suttas wherein the Buddha is said to have engaged in various formalities with his interlocutor before going into the Dhamma talk.

just for an example:
So the brahman householders of Sala went to the Blessed One. On arrival, some of them bowed down to the Blessed One and sat to one side. Some of them exchanged courteous greetings with him and, after an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, sat to one side.
So we see that there is nothing wrong with "exchanging courteous greetings." It can be a skillful way to "lubricate" the social discourse. It would certainly be strange to remain silent when exchanging courteous greetings would be demanded by the situation.

Sometimes you have to get friendly with people before you start talking about religion and morality.

RB
The world is swept away. It does not endure...
The world is without shelter, without protector...
The world is without ownership. One has to pass on, leaving everything behind...
The world is insufficient, insatiable, a slave to craving.
justindesilva
Posts: 2600
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by justindesilva »

Cittasanto wrote: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:32 pm hi,
it is talking with no meaning, small talk if you will. simply filling the silence.

Hope this helps
In Truth
Cittasanto
Good, and if you have to say nothing say nothing while if you have to talk nothing talk nothing. Then there would not be idle talk.
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by salayatananirodha »

interesting that i came across this question that i posted originally years ago because of a discussion i was having about it this week
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: how is idle speech defined for lay followers

Post by form »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:48 am idle chatter leads to hell according to the suttas
i assume anything but the ten topics are not allowed
but for lay people following this seems very difficult or impossible
Gossip
Post Reply