Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

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chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:04 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:24 am
chownah wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:57 am
But this is EXACTLY the topic of this thread
Title: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?
Go read the original post.
And it says:
SarathW wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:12 pm
Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Is this the support for the story that Buddha's alms bowel went up word the Ganges river?
Even if the river would, for some entirely mundane physical reason change direction of the flow, this should still have no bearing on how a devoted Buddhist understands the story about the Buddha's bowl floating upwards the stream on a special occasion.
So, now you are saying that anyone who does not understand the story in the way you think it should be understood is not devoted? ....just like you were saying that you understand my mother-in-laws understanding about her superstitions even though you have never met her or even heard anything about her......what kind of bs is this?

PLease do tell us how a devoted buddhist understands the story and we can take a poll and find out who is devoted and who is not......how deep can it get?
chownah

binocular
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:07 pm

I'll just repost what the Venerable said earlier here:
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:20 am
The power of augury operating via dhammaniyāma, prophetic dreams, earthquakes occurring at pivotally auspicious moments, marvels wrought by saccakiriyās, etc. are all impeccably Buddhist, even if they happen not to find favour with protestant Buddhists of the drearily modernist sort.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:21 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:19 am
It really is remarkable that you seem to think that you understand what my thai mother in law was teaching me and her attitudes toward money.......you must be clairvoyant in the extreme since you don't know who I am or who my thai mother in law was.......but I guess you know better than me.....
One doesn't have to know someone personally in order to recognize that an action they do is a ritual. Ask any anthropologist.
Whether a particular person has performed such a ritual with a mind of superstition or not is another matter, and was never the issue here.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:02 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:21 pm
chownah wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:19 am
It really is remarkable that you seem to think that you understand what my thai mother in law was teaching me and her attitudes toward money.......you must be clairvoyant in the extreme since you don't know who I am or who my thai mother in law was.......but I guess you know better than me.....
One doesn't have to know someone personally in order to recognize that an action they do is a ritual. Ask any anthropologist.
Whether a particular person has performed such a ritual with a mind of superstition or not is another matter, and was never the issue here.
It was never the issue here until you made it an issue. I made a simple post and you have a better explanation of my mother in laws attitudes (a woman you have never met and know absolutely nothing about) than I have.....again you are slipping into some delusional alternate reality taking this thread off topic.....
chownah

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:07 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:17 am
You can see this pattern in scientifically minded people who omit some vital part of a ritual, thus effectively making it a superstition.
Like when people try to come up with common-sense explanation for how a bowl could float in the opposite direction of a river's flow, completely omitting the relevance of whose that bowl was, who spoke of it, and in what circumstances.
This is exactly the point I want to make in this thread.
I have a question for you. Why did you ask the question "Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?"
chownah

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:36 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:02 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:21 pm
chownah wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:19 am
It really is remarkable that you seem to think that you understand what my thai mother in law was teaching me and her attitudes toward money.......you must be clairvoyant in the extreme since you don't know who I am or who my thai mother in law was.......but I guess you know better than me.....
One doesn't have to know someone personally in order to recognize that an action they do is a ritual. Ask any anthropologist.
Whether a particular person has performed such a ritual with a mind of superstition or not is another matter, and was never the issue here.
It was never the issue here until you made it an issue. I made a simple post and you have a better explanation of my mother in laws attitudes (a woman you have never met and know absolutely nothing about) than I have.....again you are slipping into some delusional alternate reality taking this thread off topic.....
chownah
I want to reassure you that I am not agitated or in some hostile mood....I am quite calm. I am not saying this stuff to try to cause you grief. I am trying to hold up a mirror for you. Just think about it. You seem to be of the view that even though you have never met my mother in law and know absolutely nothing about her that your discernment is so strong that you can make statements about her attitudes or intentions. I knew my mother in law for many years and of all the people I have met in the world she is one of those I hold most dear.......and you think that my discernment is so poor that without even knowing any of the particulars you decide that I am not able to discern here attitude or intention at all. I am quite willing to admit that it is possible that I could be wrong about here attitude or intention but to think that you have a better understanding of it is total bs.....are you omniscient?....

Here, just to refresh your memory about this:
chownah wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:26 pm
Sure.....the traditional buddhist world is full of ghosts of all sorts.....and all sorts of magical things that can help you out in life....my mother in law showed me if on an occasion which honors yourself you receive a certain type of ornate floral assemblage and you receive some money how you can hold the money in your right hand and move it in a circular motion above the floral assemblage and this will bring you more money in your life.......
then you replied:
Which means that one is supposed to have the right attitude toward money, to have a kind of reverence for it; and reverence has to be expressed somehow. Nothing problematic about that.
Seems you think you know what my mother in laws attitudes towards money is......what a joke :jumping: She was trying to show me how I could get more money....how I could attract money to myself....if you knew her and saw what she told me it would be obvious (well perhaps not to you....I should say if "one" knew her etc.)....it is not a subtle thing if you knew my mother in law....
chownah

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:11 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:07 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:17 am
You can see this pattern in scientifically minded people who omit some vital part of a ritual, thus effectively making it a superstition.
Like when people try to come up with common-sense explanation for how a bowl could float in the opposite direction of a river's flow, completely omitting the relevance of whose that bowl was, who spoke of it, and in what circumstances.
This is exactly the point I want to make in this thread.
I have a question for you. Why did you ask the question "Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?"
chownah
I have waited a few days so that if there were people wanting to post directly to the topic that I would not be interrupting them....but....since there has been no additional posting I figured I could move a bit off of the main points of discussion and repeat the question: If the point you were trying to make is represented in what binocular said then why did you ask the question "Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?"
chownah

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Bundokji
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Bundokji » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:42 am

From my experience, signs become less superstitious when the individual's attitude towards life becomes less manipulative.

I was reading excerpts from Ajahn Chah's biography written by Ajahn Jayasaro in his new book. He mentioned a story of a crow giving Ajahn Chah signs about people from the same family who were going to die and describing the grief experienced by Ajahn Chah when he saw the suffering in the family every time they brought a new member of the family to be cremated.

There are good reasons why more humans are becoming more skeptical about signs and dismiss them as superstitions. I think the answer is because those who believe in them interpret everything in service of greed and fear (greed for worldly gains and fear of worldly losses). I think the less an individual is driven by greed and fear, the more they encounter meaningful coincidences in the form of signs.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:45 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:42 am
I think the less an individual is driven by greed and fear, the more they encounter meaningful coincidences in the form of signs.
What gives a coincidence meaning?
chownah

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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:13 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:42 am
I think the less an individual is driven by greed and fear, the more they encounter meaningful coincidences in the form of signs.
That is the most insightful observation I have encountered in a long, long while. Food for thought.

:namaste:

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I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Bundokji
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Bundokji » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:58 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:45 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:42 am
I think the less an individual is driven by greed and fear, the more they encounter meaningful coincidences in the form of signs.
What gives a coincidence meaning?
chownah

For an average human being like myself, the term"meaningful", implies "causal" or "purposive". Things don't seem to have a meaning on their own, but in relation to something else. Also when we ask: what is the meaning of life, in a way we are asking: what is the purpose of life.

Also the term "meaning" implies knowledge. When you speak in a language that i don't understand, you words will convey no meaning to me.

For someone who is driven by greed and fear, his/her wishful thinking will tend to interpret every incident to feed the fantasy. The fantasy can take many forms: getting rich, finding a partner, avoiding sickness and/or death ...etc

Out of this, clairvoyants, astrologists, palm readers ...etc seem to make a lot of money. Fear and greed makes humans vulnerable to suggestions especially in relation to what they value.

The less a human being is driven by fear and greed, the less he/she is vulnerable to suggestions and the more clarity of mind he/she would enjoy. Also when the mind is not overly obsessed and occupied by fantasizing on objects of desires, other abilities of the mind gets unleashed, especially intuition.

From evolutionary perspective, we share common ancestry with other animals, and animals seem to have certain abilities that defy human logic. For instance, animal behavior seem to change before earthquakes, pigeons homing abilities were used by humans to deliver letters ...etc

Who teaches a human baby to seek the mother's breast and suck the nipple? How sexual desires start to emerge, sometimes in the form of wet dreams when we reach puberty? and where were these desire at a younger age? How did people knew how to make sex when they lived in caves before porno? it seems these functions/abilities/knowledge are there, waiting for the right conditions to manifest themselves.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:16 am

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:58 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:45 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:42 am
I think the less an individual is driven by greed and fear, the more they encounter meaningful coincidences in the form of signs.
What gives a coincidence meaning?
chownah
For an average human being like myself, the term"meaningful", implies "causal" or "purposive". Things don't seem to have a meaning on their own, but in relation to something else. Also when we ask: what is the meaning of life, in a way we are asking: what is the purpose of life.
I brought only the first paragraph of your post because while the rest is intersting it doesn't seem to apply directly to the question I asked.

The idea that "meaningful" implies "causal" or "purposive" is mostly what science is about....so....finding meaning in coincidence with this definition of "meaningful" can be called science......is that right? So, I guess in a way we could say that if understand a coincidence, its origins and general effect then I can predict the future in some cases and also to have a pre-formed view as to what happens in similar coincidences.....so maybe predicting the future and seeing patterns in experience is what gives "meaning" to coincidence. Seems that the "meaning" does not come from the items which are coincident but from the mental fabrications made by the observer....is that right?

You say, "Things don't seem to have a meaning on their own, but in relation to something else. " which is a good set up for the question I am asking. To restate: I realise that coincidence (now you use "things"....perhaps this broadens the discussion) don't seem to have a meaning on their own.....this is exactly why I asked about what gives a coincidence meaning. Can you say what it is?.....directly?.....or at least in a couple of sentences? I don't want to overburden you with expectations of a long reply.
chownah
edit: I don't claim to understand your position but so far it seems that you are saying that it is scientific sorts of activity which give meaning to coincidence.
chownah

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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Bundokji » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:02 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:16 am
I brought only the first paragraph of your post because while the rest is intersting it doesn't seem to apply directly to the question I asked.

The idea that "meaningful" implies "causal" or "purposive" is mostly what science is about....so....finding meaning in coincidence with this definition of "meaningful" can be called science......is that right? So, I guess in a way we could say that if understand a coincidence, its origins and general effect then I can predict the future in some cases and also to have a pre-formed view as to what happens in similar coincidences.....so maybe predicting the future and seeing patterns in experience is what gives "meaning" to coincidence. Seems that the "meaning" does not come from the items which are coincident but from the mental fabrications made by the observer....is that right?

You say, "Things don't seem to have a meaning on their own, but in relation to something else. " which is a good set up for the question I am asking. To restate: I realise that coincidence (now you use "things"....perhaps this broadens the discussion) don't seem to have a meaning on their own.....this is exactly why I asked about what gives a coincidence meaning. Can you say what it is?.....directly?.....or at least in a couple of sentences? I don't want to overburden you with expectations of a long reply.
chownah
edit: I don't claim to understand your position but so far it seems that you are saying that it is scientific sorts of activity which give meaning to coincidence.
chownah
I started my post by saying "for an average person like me" to avoid giving the false impression that i am a sage who see and experience signs! I also know of synchronicity (as a theory) but i preferred not to quote an external source but to convey how my mind try to make sense of it especially i am generally a skeptic.

The idea of meaningful coincidences is paradoxical, because the former implies causal, and the later implies acausal, but generally, the belief in one unifying truth behind appearances seem to give meaning to some simultaneous events.

To speak from my own experience, since i started to practice the dhamma, i started to notice that the more we are detached, the more things go our way, which is in fact counter intuitive in the sense that usually people teach you that the more you want things, the more you get them. No wonder, the book "the secret" was a best seller, because its telling people to fantasize all the time about what they want (they call it the law of attraction).

For instance, finding a job is very difficult in my country. When i decided to leave my old job and to start volunteering i had faith, and faith is the opposite of fear. I ended up getting a good job, working with mostly good people without ever applying for it. I was a volunteer and they offered me the job, i never asked.

Where i live, Buddhism has no existence, but one of my previous colleagues had a small Buddha statue decorating her office. I saw it as a good sign/omen (considering how unlikely to find/encounter such a thing in my country) and she bought it from Burma when she was invited by some Buddhists who visited my country to participate in an event related to faith based campaign organized by the organization we work for, and when she was going to resign, she told me that i can take it when she leaves. This gave rise to feelings of greed in me because i wanted the statue to confirm an idea in my mind that i am, somehow, on the right direction. To my disappointment, she left the statue along with other things in her office but forgot to give it to me and it ended up in the office of another colleague. I wanted to tell him that the statue was promised to me but reminded myself that Buddhism is about letting go and i thought that i should be happy for him for getting the statue (even though the statue does not represent to him the same meaning it represents to me). Everyone in the office knows that i am a Buddhist, and the guy implied that he can give the statue if i want it, but i decided to never ask for it. On my last birthday, i found the statue on my office as a gift when i forgot about the whole thing!

Usually, i love traveling and i made a habit of traveling every year and i usually do it during Ramdan because i don't like the whole atmosphere. Because i spend too much money, last year i could not travel and i accepted the situation reflecting on how lucky i am to travel many times in my life and fulfilling my desires while the vast majority could not leave the country even once. Last December, there was a conference in Barcelona, and all staff members from the three countries where our organization operates wanted to go, but i never asked wishing happiness to whoever goes. It was meant to be our director who will attend, but due to certain circumstances, he could not get the visa. I was sitting at home and all of the sudden i received a phone call from my supervisor asking me if i can go to Barcelona. I was the only one who did not ask for it, and it came to me, and i suspect it caused a bit of jealousy from some colleagues especially those who were too desperate to go.

If you tell me two years ago that i would have my own place to have the time and space for myself, i would not believed it. I spent all my money traveling, engaging in hedonistic and risky behavior. And now, i am owning a small apartment where i can have time for myself. My mother helped me to purchase a small apartment, i never asked for it and in fact, i did not want my mother to spend her money, but it happened.

The above might mean nothing to most people, but i am increasingly believing that the more i am detached, the more i am safe both internally and externally. It also worth noting that detachment cannot be faked, you cannot tell yourself that you are detached when your real intention is to attach. Life seem to be most generous to those who don't ask. And this in turn gave rise to feelings of gratitude inside me, and a wish to give something back.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:42 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:12 pm
Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Is this the support for the story that Buddha's alms bowel went up word the Ganges river?

Have your questions been answered?
Does the fact that rivers can reverse their flow direction support the story?
Also, I don't want to watch all of the video so can you tell me the time stamp for where it talks about things you are wanting to talk about....I looked but can't find anything that seems relevant to rivers flowing etc.
chownah

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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:23 pm

Image

Notice the change of direction near Varanasi. That is what the cleric in the video in the OP meant by the Ganges flowing "backward" afaik.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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