question about gītassara sutta!

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Dhammarakkhito
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question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:49 am

hey,

so 'sustained melodic intonation;' what exactly does this mean
for me i turn off musical chants, like heart sutra, right away, but i really enjoy chants like
and it never occurred to me that something like this would be in any way singing. my friend argued that the sutta means chanting only in monotone but i disagree
for reference: http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 5-209.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:08 am

ok my friend saw this thread and offered a correction
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by 2600htz » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:56 pm

Hello:

It means what it means haha :).
Its just one of many Hindu Brahmin practices that have crept into Buddhism for hundreds of years.

Regards.

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:37 pm

not helpful
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:42 am

The key point is that the meaning of the text gets lost. The example given above is not a problem in my view as the Pāḷi is clearly recognisable as such.
PTS Dictionary wrote:Sarabhañña intoning, a particular mode of reciting Vin I.196; II.108, 316; J II.109; DhA I.154
Here are some examples that I reference to show what is, and what is not, acceptable.

Singing



Devotional Chanting



These are both by lay people who do not have to follow the Vinaya rules.

Musical Intonation (By a well-known monk)



Intonation (Thai Style)

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by robertk » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:13 am

Very helpful Venerable!

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by SarathW » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:32 am

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:43 am

This one cited on Sutta Central is an example of what is wrong with a long drawn out intonation. Although the Pali can be understood, the singing is distracting.



The chanting by Dambagolle Sudassi is excellent.

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by SarathW » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:08 am

This one cited on Sutta Central is an example of what is wrong with a long drawn out intonation.
Agree I was looking for something better. What do you think about the following?

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:03 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:08 am
What do you think about the following?
I don't like that one either. This Burmese Sayādaw chants clearly, and his videos are linked to from the Paritta Sutta pages on my site. There are also audio versions by other sayādaws, e.g. by Sayādaw U Vicittassāra (the first Tipiṭakadhāra Sayādaw and chief reciter at the Chaṭṭha Saṅgāyana).

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:02 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:42 am
PTS Dictionary wrote:Sarabhañña intoning, a particular mode of reciting Vin I.196; II.108, 316; J II.109; DhA I.154
The Thais, oddly enough, have chosen to name one of their styles of chanting after the very thing one isn't supposed to do.

Buddhamaṅgalagāthā in the sarabhañña / sawraphanya style.

.

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:08 am

bhantes, you're saying the thai chanting there is not acceptable? i may be failing to understand what is the difference between it and some of the other chants. it's clear to me that the ones by the laity are not acceptable for bhikkhus (even tho i'm a lay i care about vinaya rules)
i also agree about the third one, by the ven kiribathgoda...
i listen to thai chanting like



sometimes and it doesnt immediately strike me as problematic like others do. is it the rhythm or the pronunciation or what
srilankan pansil: this one is annoying in a way, but it didnt occur to me to be singing
very excited to listen to the one by dambagolle, im kind of a chanting fanatic and it sounds good (maybe not as 'fun' as the one i posted in op)
the theruwan too sounds kind of awful but i still dont see how its singing

i mean i suppose i see a sort of difference between the thais and the rest but
the only one that really seems like singing is the third one
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:33 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:08 am
bhantes, you're saying the thai chanting there is not acceptable?
No, I didn't say that. I don't know whether what the Thais call "sarabhañña-style" is the same as what goes by this name in the suttas. In my post I merely remarked on the oddity of naming a style of recitation after something the Buddha disapproved.

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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:17 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:02 am
The Thais, oddly enough, have chosen to name one of their styles of chanting after the very thing one isn't supposed to do.
That is incorrect. The sarabhañña style (intonation) is allowable:
Vinaya Cūḷavagga wrote:Tena kho pana samayena bhikkhū sarabhaññe kukkuccāyanti. Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. “Anujānāmi, bhikkhave, sarabhañña”nti.
It is the singing style that is not allowable:
Na, bhikkhave, āyatakena gītassarena dhammo gāyitabbo. Yo gāyeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassā”ti.
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Re: question about gītassara sutta!

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:48 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:17 am
That is incorrect. The sarabhañña style (intonation) is allowable:
Whoops. :embarassed:

Thanks for the correction.

:bow:

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