Kamma means action.
Actions (thus kamma) can have their roots in different mind-states, one of which is greed.
Metta,
Paul.
Kamma means action.
I recently saw Gombrich make this mistake in a video, so you're in good company.
I trust that Gombrich (and Retro, come to think of it) was simply using the term "action" to include mental action as well as actions in the physical world.Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:02 pmI recently saw Gombrich make this mistake in a video, so you're in good company.
However, kamma means intention or volition, not action. Kamma can be made at the mental level alone with covetousness, ill-will, and wrong-view, or with generosity, loving-kindness, and entertaining a right-view.
Yes, indeed it is so. Alas, if things are explained and explored in detail, some object to that.... if something is said simply and in brief for the benefit of the listener, others object to that too.
Many thanks Bhante.
While you pursue your line of inquiry with Bhikkhu Pesala... I might address this in my own words.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:23 pm Bhante, could you please explain how ditthi has kammic significance? I have seen it represented as such in the suttas, but it would seem that it is possible to have a "view" which does not have a volitional element present, in the same way that the other factors (covetousness, etc.) obviously do have. Is it impossible for us to have a view of the world which merely acknowledges how we think things are (no matter how deluded or incorrect) without there being an intention involved?
However, it would be wrong IMO to conflate Moha with Wrong View, and Amoha with Right View."Delusion itself is unskillful. Whatever a deluded person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is unskillful. Whatever suffering a deluded person — his mind overcome with delusion, his mind consumed — wrongly inflicts on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is unskillful. Thus it is that many evil, unskillful qualities — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originated through delusion, conditioned by delusion — come into play.
...
"Lack of delusion itself is skillful. Whatever an undeluded person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is skillful. Whatever suffering an undeluded person — his mind not overcome with delusion, his mind not consumed — does not wrongly inflict on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is skillful. Thus it is that many skillful qualities — born of lack of delusion, caused by lack of delusion, originated through lack of delusion, conditioned by lack of delusion — come into play.
Thanks, this is helpful as it clarifies my own thinking. I tended initially to draw a line between volition, and the viewpoints which inform it. Obviously, I thought, Right View is better than Wrong View, but in a different sort of way that good kamma is better than bad kamma. One can, presumably, have Right View, and yet not act upon it. Conversely, as you say, one can generate good kamma even though one does not have or even know about Right View. Does a reclusive silent person who doesn't act upon the world all that much or communicate with others still rise or fall according to his/her Weltanschauung? Quite simply, a view is merely a way of seeing things, an organised perception if you like, a matter of epistemology and what we know of our world; whereas kamma is a matter of practical ethics, and an answer to the question of "what to do?".retrofuturist wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:05 pm Greetings Sam,
While you pursue your line of inquiry with Bhikkhu Pesala... I might address this in my own words.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:23 pm Bhante, could you please explain how ditthi has kammic significance? I have seen it represented as such in the suttas, but it would seem that it is possible to have a "view" which does not have a volitional element present, in the same way that the other factors (covetousness, etc.) obviously do have. Is it impossible for us to have a view of the world which merely acknowledges how we think things are (no matter how deluded or incorrect) without there being an intention involved?
The roots (mula) of kamma are explained well in AN 3.69 - Mula Sutta.
It explains moha and amoha thusly...
However, it would be wrong IMO to conflate Moha with Wrong View, and Amoha with Right View."Delusion itself is unskillful. Whatever a deluded person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is unskillful. Whatever suffering a deluded person — his mind overcome with delusion, his mind consumed — wrongly inflicts on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is unskillful. Thus it is that many evil, unskillful qualities — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originated through delusion, conditioned by delusion — come into play.
...
"Lack of delusion itself is skillful. Whatever an undeluded person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is skillful. Whatever suffering an undeluded person — his mind not overcome with delusion, his mind not consumed — does not wrongly inflict on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is skillful. Thus it is that many skillful qualities — born of lack of delusion, caused by lack of delusion, originated through lack of delusion, conditioned by lack of delusion — come into play.
Why? Because whether someone has Right View or not, they can still do kamma which is rooted is non-delusion, non-greed and non-aversion.
If it were otherwise then:
- All actions done by non-Buddhists would be inherently unwholesome or evil
- The Buddha could never have become enlightened.
Thus, whilst Right View promotes and is conducive to the wholesome, and Wrong View promotes and is conducive to the unwholesome, the link is not inextricable.
The sutta linked to by Ven. Pesala shows the ideal role of Right Effort and Right Mindfulness, in their dynamic relationship to Right View. This leads to better outcomes than Right View alone, as one is more diligent in maintaining and generating kusala action of mind, speech and body.
Metta,
Paul.
Whilst the above is obviously correct in its intent & the explanation I personally prefer (given it is based on AN 3.69 & MN 9), to avoid quibbling, this can also be explained in terms of primal elements (dhatu), underlying tendencies (anusaya) & eruptions/leakages/outflows of underlying tendencies (asava), which are not mental, verbal or bodily kamma (intentional actions), as demonstrated below:retrofuturist wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:54 pmActions (thus kamma) can have their roots in different mind-states, one of which is greed.
4 THE SENSUALITY ELEMENT AS SOURCE.
Bhikshus,
dependent on the sensuality element, perception of sensuality arises;
dependent on perception of sensuality, sensual intention arises;
dependent on sensual intention, sensual desire arises;
dependent on sensual desire, sensual passion arises;
dependent on sensual passion , sensual quest arises;
engaged in the quest of sensuality, the uninstructed worldling conducts himself wrongly in these three
ways—with the body, with speech, and with the mind.
5 THE ILL WILL ELEMENT AS SOURCE.
Bhikshus,
dependent on the ill will element, perception of ill will arises;
dependent on perception of ill will, ill-willed intention arises;
dependent on ill-willed intention, ill-willed desire arises;
dependent on ill-willed desire, ill-willed passion arises;
dependent on ill-willed passion , ill-willed quest arises;
engaged in the quest of ill will, the uninstructed worldling conducts himself wrongly in these three
ways—with the body, with speech, and with the mind.
6 THE VIOLENCE ELEMENT AS SOURCE.
Bhikshus,
dependent on the violence element, perception of violence arises;
dependent on perception of violence, violent intention arises;
dependent on violent intention, violent desire arises;
dependent on violent desire, violent passion arises;
dependent on violent passion , violent quest arises;
engaged in the quest of violence, the uninstructed worldling conducts himself wrongly in these
three ways—with the body, with speech, and with the mind.
SN 14.12
When talking about kamma, it is important to emphasise the role played by intention in affecting the result of action.Nicolas wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:53 pm I understood “intention is kamma” as “intention is action” in the sense of intention being the root of all action (“intending, one acts”), kind of like “birth is dukkha”, and so intention and kamma/action being equivalent in a sense. Is it wrong understanding? It seems more of a semantic question, with kamma:=action or kamma:=intention being equivalent.
This may be true, however, within the sphere of morality (sila), namely, how kamma (actions) affect others, the mental kamma is not so relevant & a mental asava is itself not yet kamma. In the Noble Eightfold Path, for example, greed is a factor of mind (2nd path factor) to be abandoned but not a factor of morality (3rd, 4th & 5th path factors).Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:40 pmWhen talking about kamma, it is important to emphasise the role played by intention in affecting the result of action.
From the Upali Sutta ( https://suttacentral.net/en/mn56 ) :DooDoot wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:42 pmThis may be true, however, within the sphere of morality (sila), namely, how kamma (actions) affect others, the mental kamma is not so relevant & a mental asava is itself not yet kamma. In the Noble Eightfold Path, for example, greed is a factor of mind (2nd path factor) to be abandoned but not a factor of morality (3rd, 4th & 5th path factors).Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:40 pmWhen talking about kamma, it is important to emphasise the role played by intention in affecting the result of action.