All dhammas are personal, not public

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5382
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by DooDoot » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:31 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:00 am
Given that the Samudaya Sutta is found in the SN's Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta ... it would seem that "dhammas" in the fourth statement is not to be understood as "all dhammas", but only those dhammas that constitute dhammānupassanā — i.e., hindrances, factors of awakening, etc.
Venerable Dhammanando. Which suttas in the SN's Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta explain "dhammas" in the same way as explained in MN 10 & DN 22, i.e., including unwholesome/unskilfull dhammas, such as the five hindrances?
retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:35 pm
Manasikara (attention) is part of the nama within nama-rupa...
MN 9 wrote:"Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form."
...and it is an essential aspect of the arising of dhammas...
SN 47.42: Samudaya Sutta wrote:With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas. With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas
Maybe AN 10.58 does not support this personal view, which states:
All dhammas come into play through attention...

All dhammas have mindfulness as their governing principle.

All dhammas have discernment as their surpassing state.

All dhammas have release as their heartwood.

All dhammas gain their footing in the deathless.

AN 10.58
Now, before jumping to the personal interpretive conclusion that the word 'dhamma' in AN 10.58 refers to 'all dhammas', it appears AN 4.245 & SN 48.44 support the view that the term "dhammas" in AN 10.58 only refers to "skillful dhammas", as follows:
And how is discernment the surpassing state? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has scrutinized them all with discernment. This is how discernment is the surpassing state.

And how is release the heartwood? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has touched them all through release. This is how release is the heartwood.

And how is mindfulness the governing principle? The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to good conduct that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to good conduct that is complete’ is well established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is complete’ is well established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will scrutinize with discernment any Dhamma that is not yet scrutinized, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been scrutinized’ is well established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will touch through release any Dhamma that is not yet touched, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been touched’ is well established right within. This is how mindfulness is the governing principle.

‘Monks, this holy life is lived with training as a reward, with discernment as its surpassing state, with release as its heartwood, and with mindfulness as its governing principle’: Thus it was said. And in reference to this was it said.

AN 4.245
the faculty of conviction, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation... the faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation....

SN 48.44
Therefore, there appears to be a case/argument that the phrase: "With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas. With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas" may only refer to skilful dhammas. :shrug:
And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention.

And what is the nutriment for mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careful attention.

AN 10.61
If dependent origination leads to suffering, possibly the attention referred to in 'nama-rupa' is careless attention? If so, if SN 47.42 refers only to wise attention and dependent origination only refers to ignorant/careless attention, then SN 47.42 may not be not referring to 'nama-rupa' in dependent origination. :shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21256
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:42 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:31 am
the view that the term "dhammas" in AN 10.58 only refers to "skillful dhammas", as follows:

...

Therefore, there appears to be a case/argument that the phrase: "With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas. With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas" may only refer to skilful dhammas. :shrug:
It is my understanding that AN 10.58 is referring to dhammas as a contrast between that which is dhammic and that which is adhammic. Thus, the dhamma of AN 10.58 is equivalent to what is known elsewhere as saddhamma (i.e. the good Dhamma).

And, yes, that is one usage of the term "dhamma", but I believe it's a different one to the other sutta-based usage which regards "dhamma" as "phenomena", or more loosely as "thing".

So, which definition of "dhamma" is used in the context of satipatthana, or is it a different one again? It's my opinion that satipatthana is referring to "dhamma" in the broader sense of "phenomena", for what would be the use of excluding akusala dhammas from the field of enquiry, when they are potentially within the field of personal experience (for the non-arahant)?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:45 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:20 am
Greetings Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:13 am
Well your proposed teaching sounds pretty alien to Therevada, too.
... according to someone who just tried to smuggle the Dhammakaya doctrine of the Mahayana into Theravada.

:alien:

Right-e-o Lyndon, whatever you say...

I don't mind you critiquing what I said, but to do so, you'd first have to comprehend it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
The old throw out some personal attacks strategy, great work.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21256
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:54 am

Greetings Lyndon,

You can call it whatever you like, but I am allowed to express why it would be a complete waste of time for me to respond further to your objections, when your above postings demonstrate both that you've not at all comprehended what I said, and that frankly, your grasp on what constitutes Theravada doctrine (vis-a-vis Mahayana) is demonstrably weak.

If you had a genuine interest in understanding what I'm saying, then I may consider elaborating upon it for you, but I've known you long enough now to know better than that...

:hello:

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5382
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by DooDoot » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:42 am
It is my understanding that AN 10.58 is referring to dhammas as a contrast between that which is dhammic and that which is adhammic. Thus, the dhamma of AN 10.58 is equivalent to what is known elsewhere as saddhamma (i.e. the good Dhamma).
Since dependent origination is called "the wrong path" in SN 12.3, must not all of the dhammas contained within the twelve conditions be unwholesome?
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:42 am
So, which definition of "dhamma" is used in the context of satipatthana, or is it a different one again? It's my opinion that satipatthana is referring to "dhamma" in the broader sense of "phenomena", for what would be the use of excluding akusala dhammas from the field of enquiry, when they are potentially within the field of personal experience (for the non-arahant)
Since every stage of Satipatthana is practised with "ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world... And he remains independent, not clinging to anything in the world."., in my view, there is no scope for the five hindrances to fall within the scope of Satipatthana practise, which is why i asked Venerable Dhammanando is there anywhere in the SN that conforms with MN 10 & DN 22. If the five hindrances were part of Satipatthana practise, why would they be called 'hindrances"? I imagine hindrances are hindrances to satipatthana practise. Further, MN 118 (Anapanasati Sutta) does not include the five hindrances within dhammanupassana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21256
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:13 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:02 am
Since dependent origination is called "the wrong path" in SN 12.3, must not all of the dhammas contained within the twelve conditions be unwholesome?
I don't think so. All sankhata-dhammas are based on a general not-knowingness (avijja) regarding the true Dhamma, which is common to the non-arahant. That which arises from that not-knowingness can be either wholesome, unwholesome or an admixture of both.

The reason it is the "wrong path" is not because it gives rise to exclusively akusala-dhammas, but because it gives rise to sankhata-dhammas at all. Paticcasamuppada is often accompanied by what is known as its "reverse mode" or "cessation mode", which is the opposite of dependent arising. Thus the "good path" is the path which leads to the cessation of dhammas, elsewhere described this way...
AN 4.232 wrote:"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? The intention right there to abandon this kamma that is dark with dark result... this kamma that is bright with bright result... this kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."
P.S. Thank you as usual for the way you present sutta as a means to complement your explanations.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by robertk » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:44 am

Since every stage of Satipatthana is practised with "ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world... And he remains independent, not clinging to anything in the world."., in my view, there is no scope for the five hindrances to fall within the scope of Satipatthana practise, which is why i asked Venerable Dhammanando is there anywhere in the SN that conforms with MN 10 & DN 22. If the five hindrances were part of Satipatthana practise, why would they be called 'hindrances"? I imagine hindrances are hindrances to satipatthana practise
.They are arammana paccaya, objects for insight and just as valuable as any other object in satipatthana.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5382
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by DooDoot » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:13 am
Paticcasamuppada is often accompanied by what is known as its "reverse mode" or "cessation mode", which is the opposite of dependent arising. Thus the "good path" is the path which leads to the cessation of dhammas, elsewhere described this way...
SN 12.2 seems to not include the reverse mode in its definition of P.S.
And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Also MN 28:
Now this has been said by the Blessed One: “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.” And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for these five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering.’ At that point too, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5382
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by DooDoot » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:57 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:44 am
They are arammana paccaya, objects for insight and just as valuable as any other object in satipatthana.
But if they hinder or cloud "clear seeing" ("vipassana"), how can they be seen clearly? :shrug:
Imagine, Brahman, a bowl of water mixed with lac, turmeric, dark green or crimson dye. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires... then he cannot know or see, as it really is...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
Posts: 11766
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:14 am

All dhammas are personal, not public.
What are you saying is there is only internal Dhamma no external?
Last edited by SarathW on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21256
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:14 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:52 am
SN 12.2 seems to not include the reverse mode in its definition of P.S.
Yes it does... final paragraph.
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
DooDoot wrote:Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
I think I know what point you're trying to make here with the underlining, but I feel it's adequately countered with "sabba sankhara dukkha" (Dhp 278)
DooDoot wrote:And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen]
Again, I think I know what point you're trying to make here with the underlining, and it brings us back to whether the aggregates (bundles) are ongoing extant things, or whether they are classes of aggregation that arise only upon their delineation.

I don't intend to go too far down that line of inquiry here, as it's been covered previously in lengthy topics like "Aggregate?".

(I'll try to remember to look for a topic link later when I'm in front of a PC)

UPDATE: Aggregate?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21256
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:19 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:14 am
All dhammas are personal, not public.
What are you saying is there is only internal Dhamma not external?
No. Put another way, I'm saying that the dhammas you experience are created by you, and experienced by you. There are no public dhammas that both you and I can approach and experience. Any physical matter external to us both is merely the four great elements and (despite what the Abhidhamma might say) there is no basis in the Sutta Pitaka by which they ought to be regarded as dhammas.

(Or at least no basis that I'm aware of, despite having put out the invitation in this topic for people to put forward evidence to the contrary)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

SarathW
Posts: 11766
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:03 am

I'm saying that the dhammas you experience are created by you, and experienced by you.
Are you saying that I create the Buddha and his teaching in my own mind?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by robertk » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:17 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:57 am
robertk wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:44 am
They are arammana paccaya, objects for insight and just as valuable as any other object in satipatthana.
But if they hinder or cloud "clear seeing" ("vipassana"), how can they be seen clearly? :shrug:
Imagine, Brahman, a bowl of water mixed with lac, turmeric, dark green or crimson dye. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires... then he cannot know or see, as it really is...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
Of course at the moment of insighting a hindrance or any other object in satipatthana the citta is associated with alobha and panna .
Remember that samatha and vipassana are completely different paths. So while the nivirana are hindrances to samatha and must be suppressed , they are merely objects for satipatthana and must be understood.

From the commentary to the satipatthana sutta:
"In this way the bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects, by laying hold of the five hindrances amongst the mental objects of his own mind or amongst the mental objects in another's mind or at one time amongst the mental objects of his own mind, and at another time amongst the mental objects of another's mind.[ ……]Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood
"

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by Bundokji » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:19 am
No. Put another way, I'm saying that the dhammas you experience are created by you, and experienced by you.
What do you mean by "you" here? do you mean improper attention?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Craig86, Dinsdale, Laurens, Tom and 44 guests