All dhammas are personal, not public

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retrofuturist
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Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:07 am

Greetings,
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:39 am
To the 'I' making activity and cognizing me and mine, creating subject and object, and its world of suffering. This is what stopped in the Buddha.
And what actually is the rupa aggregate, by your reckoning?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:15 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:37 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:21 pm
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:58 am
kind of solipsistic, don't you think?
Not really. It is more about understanding how our experience arises.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all."
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.23
I think the 5 khandhas hold the key. Without understanding this, the 'I' making activity continues to identify and cognize me and mine, creating subject and object, and its world of suffering.
Yes, this point is probably clearer using the 5 aggregates model than using sense-bases/objects with their structural duality. Though to muddy the water, I came across this passage from AN 3.33. It's interesting to note the distinction here between conscious body (1) and external objects (2), presumably both part of the rupa aggregate - but again there is a duality, equivalent I think to the sense-base/object duality.

“Therefore, Sāriputta, you should train yourselves thus: (1) ‘There will be no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to this conscious body; (2) there will be no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to all external objects; and (3) we will enter and dwell in that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, through which there is no more I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit for one who enters and dwells in it.’ It is in this way, Sāriputta, that you should train yourselves."
https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.33
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:16 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:07 am
Greetings,
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:39 am
To the 'I' making activity and cognizing me and mine, creating subject and object, and its world of suffering. This is what stopped in the Buddha.
And what actually is the rupa aggregate, by your reckoning?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Rupa seems to be the mental image that the brain forms from the light waves and color that hit the eye. Each sense does this in its own way. This is before cognition gets hold of this information to identify and categorize it using memory.

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Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:18 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:15 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:37 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:21 pm


Not really. It is more about understanding how our experience arises.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all."
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.23
I think the 5 khandhas hold the key. Without understanding this, the 'I' making activity continues to identify and cognize me and mine, creating subject and object, and its world of suffering.
Yes, this point is probably clearer using the 5 aggregates model than using sense-bases/objects with their structural duality. Though to muddy the water, I came across this passage from AN 3.33. It's interesting to note the distinction here between conscious body (1) and external objects (2), presumably both part of the rupa aggregate - but again there is a duality, equivalent I think to the sense-base/object duality.

“Therefore, Sāriputta, you should train yourselves thus: (1) ‘There will be no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to this conscious body; (2) there will be no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to all external objects; and (3) we will enter and dwell in that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, through which there is no more I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit for one who enters and dwells in it.’ It is in this way, Sāriputta, that you should train yourselves."
https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.33
That seems to be where it all leads to. :twothumbsup:

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Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:11 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:35 pm
Whatever there might be "out there" in the world and the universe beyond the six-sense sphere (e.g. the four great elements in ancient parlance, atomic matter in modern parlance), it is not rightly regarded as a "dhamma", for what basis is there in calling it a "dhamma" according to the sutta extracts above, or any suttas for that matter?
Out of curiosity, other than in presuming a rejection of Mahāyānasūtrāṇi, how is what you have outlined substantially dissimilar to Venerable Vasubadhu's treatment of citta in Cittamātratā? As Ven Vasubandhu famously states: the all can only be found/located as/in mind-alone, as nothing else and in nowhere else.

Furthermore how is this different from postmodern discourse wherein the signifier stands in place of the signified?

Neither of the above two positions specifically excludes the possibility of the existence of the object/signified.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: All dhammas are personal, not public

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:57 pm

Greetings C,

To be honest, I wouldn't know, because I am not au fait with the Mahayana Buddhists of old. It could be the same, it could be different, but I would know either way.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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