Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

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Strive4Karuna
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Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by Strive4Karuna » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:17 am

I i am not mistaken, the conditions of the human realm, feeling both pleasant and unpleasant make for the best conditions for making progress towards nibbana.

I know that those born in the pure abodes will pass into nibbana without ever leaving those realms.

But how about the devas in the other realms? I know they would often come from the heavens to listen to the dhamma talks of the Buddha but did they listen simply out of pleasure or could they put what the learned into use.

The Buddha said it is harder for them to make progress because they feel only pleasant feelings, but is it impossible for them to make substantial progress? Could a deva from the rupa-loka (fine material realm) and devas in the kama-loka become ariya (4 noble ones) by praticing while in heaven? Those in the top 5 realms of the rupa-loka the pure abodes are obviously bound for nibbanna but i am not talking about them, also i have read that those in the arupa-loka (immaterial realm) have no bodies so they cannot listen to the Buddhas teaching and therefore make no progress on the path so i am not talking about them either unless i am mistaken.

Also, this is basically the same question, but if devas cannot make any substantial progress in the heavens for wisdom and insight, can they atleast work towards further purification of their virtues and continue to do good? Make more merit for themselves? Maybe coming to earth to somehow benefit human beings or those in the states of deprivation or do they have no motivation for improvement and progression of their virtues and simply live abiding in pleasant feelings. Also can they give dana?

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robertk
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by robertk » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:23 am

Countless devas attain while in devaloka: they are are nama-rupa and have the means, if they listen to Dhamma, to perceive the distinction between namarupa

Strive4Karuna
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by Strive4Karuna » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:33 am

robertk wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:23 am
Countless devas attain while in devaloka: they are are nama-rupa and have the means, if they listen to Dhamma, to perceive the distinction between namarupa
Hi Robert thank you for the reply. Can you go into the further detail about the distinction between namarupa. Please forgive my ignorance but please explain to me the distinction between namarupa i do not know this.

Thanks!

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robertk
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by robertk » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:49 am

Strive4Karuna wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:33 am
robertk wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:23 am
Countless devas attain while in devaloka: they are are nama-rupa and have the means, if they listen to Dhamma, to perceive the distinction between namarupa
Hi Robert thank you for the reply. Can you go into the further detail about the distinction between namarupa. Please forgive my ignorance but please explain to me the distinction between namarupa i do not know this.

Thanks!
Sure. Briefly this distinction is what is critical to insight: so mentality is entirely different from materiality but because they arise together they are confused and the difference is obscured.
The way of satipatthana is to learn that there is only nama-rupa, no self, and to see the difference between concept and reality, and then to directly experience the distinction between nama-rupa - which is the beginning of vipassana.

Dhammavaro
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by Dhammavaro » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:19 am

Devas can work together with humans.
We can invite them to our meditation.
We can share loving kindness towards the Devas.
In some points they can help us and made some merrit.

Without out us, they will stuck in their realms.
^^The Greatest Gift to Buddha, our Parents, our teacher..is to open the eye of dhamma^^

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robertk
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by robertk » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:16 am

Dhammavaro wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:19 am
merrit.

Without out us, they will stuck in their realms.
how do you reach this conclusion?

Dhammavaro
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by Dhammavaro » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:08 pm

Sometimes when our mindfulness is very strong, we are able to see such things. But it's not so important for our practice.
But if we are able to help, we should help.
It's a good exchange for both, Devas and Humans.
^^The Greatest Gift to Buddha, our Parents, our teacher..is to open the eye of dhamma^^

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:26 am

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life." [1]
Note

1.
The message here is that in realms where sense objects are totally disagreeable or totally agreeable it is very difficult to practice the holy life, for in the former, one is too distracted by pain; in the latter, too distracted by pleasure.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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dylanj
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by dylanj » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:19 am

Everyone in the pure abodes attains nibbaana in that very life :)
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

justindesilva
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:23 am

Dhammavaro wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:08 pm
Sometimes when our mindfulness is very strong, we are able to see such things. But it's not so important for our practice.
But if we are able to help, we should help.
It's a good exchange for both, Devas and Humans.
It is popularly remarked that living arya ashtangika margaya is essential to develop the mind to state of Nirvana. However lord buddha is said to have visted his mother to the heavens who died in a week after siddarthas birth to preach the darma for her to attain nibbana. But it is known that the devas are a set of beings who are having sensual desires and have even got to lower realms later.
pl. read Teacher of the devas www. accesstoinsight
written by Susan Elba Jootla.
This article explains the much needed explanation in detail.

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robertk
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by robertk » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:06 am

Here is one sutta, as an example, where the deva listens to Buddha and attains.

Samyutta Nikaya sagathavagga (devatasamyutta) Translation by Bodhi
p122

46(6)Accharaasutta.m
Deva:
Resounding with a host of Nymphs,
Haunted by a host of demons!
This grove is to be called deluding
How does one escape from it?
"Accharaaga.nasa"nghu.t.tha.m, pisaacaga.nasevita.m;
vananta.m mohana.m naama, katha.m yaatraa bhavissatii"ti.
The Buddha:
The straight way that path is called,
And fearless is its destination.
The chariot is called 'unrattling',
Fitted with wheels of wholesome states,
"Ujuko naama so maggo, abhayaa naama saa disaa;
ratho akuujano naama, dhammacakkehi sa.myuto.


The sense of shame (hiri) is its leaning board
Mindfulness its upholstery
I call the Dhamma the charioteer,
With right view running out in front,
"Hirii tassa apaalambo, satyassa parivaara.na.m;
dhammaaha.m saarathi.m bruumi, sammaadi.t.thipurejava.m.

One who has such a vehicle
Whether woman or man
Has, by means of this vehicle,
Drawn close to nibbana
"Yassa etaadisa.m yaana.m, itthiyaa purisassa vaa;
sa ve etena yaanena, nibbaanasseva
santike"ti


The phrase "sammaadi.t.thipurejava.m." [with]right view running out
in front is explained in the commentary:
Sammaadi.t.thipurejavanti vipassanaasammaadi.t.thipurejavaa assa
pubbayaayikaati sammaadi.t.thipurejavo,
ta.m sammaadi.t.thipurejava.m. Yathaa hi pa.thamatara.m
raajapurisehi kaa.naku.ni-aadiina.mniihara.nena magge sodhite
pacchaa raajaa nikkha
mati, evameva.m vipassanaa sammaadi.t.thiyaa aniccaadivasena
khandhaadiisu sodhitesu pacchaa bhuumiladdhava.t.ta.m
parijaanamaanaa
maggasammaadi.t.thi uppajjati. Tena vutta.m "dhammaaha.m saarathi.m
bruumi, sammaadi.t.thipurejavan"ti.

Which essentially means that the insight into the 5 khandhas as
anicca (impermanent) is vipassana rightview which clears the way for
magga sammaditthi (path right view), enlightenment. (It gives the
analogy of the Kings servants who clear the path before the King
comes out)
sodhitesu -- one who cleanses
parijaanamaanaa-- knowledge, ascertainment
raaja-- King
uppajjati- to arise


Upon completing( ni.t.thaapetvaa avasaane ) the discourse(
desana.m ) the Buddha (bhagavaa) explained( diipesi) the four
[noble] truths( cattaari saccaani)> at the completion of this
discourse (Desanaapariyosaane) the Deva was fixed (pati.t.thaasi) in
the fruit of sotapatti (first stage of enlightenment)
(sotaapattiphale ) .

Iti bhagavaa desana.m ni.t.thaapetvaa avasaane cattaari saccaani
diipesi. Desanaapariyosaane devaputto sotaapattiphale pati.t.thaasi

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Circle5
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by Circle5 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:42 pm

Strive4Karuna wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:33 am
robertk wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:23 am
Countless devas attain while in devaloka: they are are nama-rupa and have the means, if they listen to Dhamma, to perceive the distinction between namarupa
Hi Robert thank you for the reply. Can you go into the further detail about the distinction between namarupa. Please forgive my ignorance but please explain to me the distinction between namarupa i do not know this.

Thanks!
Think of a car parking sensor. There exist the parking sensor, there exist the things that it perceives (trees, other cars, etc.) and there exist the perception of those trees, cars, etc.

In the same way, there exist trees cars etc. that are perceived by humans (this is RUPA / FORM) - then there is the awareness, the understanding that it is a tree, it is a car, etc. - that is NAME. They are always found together, always conjoined and never disjoined.

Dhammavaro
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Re: Can devas make progress towards nibbanna?

Post by Dhammavaro » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:14 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:23 am

pl. read Teacher of the devas www. accesstoinsight
written by Susan Elba Jootla.
This article explains the much needed explanation in detail.
Thank you for your answer !
But i will only read my heart. This is enough.
I wish you peace !
^^The Greatest Gift to Buddha, our Parents, our teacher..is to open the eye of dhamma^^

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